Author Topic: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board  (Read 3929 times)

Mark

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AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« on: August 14, 2005, 07:27:01 pm »
I saw the attached exchange on the Cyberknife support group board and thought it might be of interest on this board as the poster asks some very good questions about radiosurgery. It also highlights how important it is to make the effort to get opinions from experienced docs of both treatment options. It is very true that virtually every AN patient is diagnosed by an ENT and immediately referred to a surgeon. I also believe that few surgeons provide new patients with a fair representation of the radiosurgery option either a) because they truly do not understand it or b) it's not in their best interest ( financially) to suggest it. Taking control of your healthcare choices and not accepting any one doctors opinion is critical in this process. There are docs with bias to their specialty and you need to determine which option gives you the best option. Whichever choice you make, sort the fact from the fiction. The exchange below certainly provides an illustration

Mark

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PATIENT

I am 37 and have a recently diagnosed right-side 4mm x 8mm AN. I noticed dizziness and then fullness in my ear, followed by tinnitus - otherwise very few symptoms to date. I have met with a Gamma Knife MD and a otolaryngologist to get opinions this week. I heard some troubling info and want to run it by the Dr's on this site:

The Gamma Knife MD said the 1 mm "error rate" of the CyberKnife could make an enormous difference with ANs and that the CyberKnife would be better for a non-brain tumor (the Gamma Knife was the "gold standard" for ANs). He also said that if I want to have children I might not want radiation.

I was told by the Oto MD that radiation (CK or GK) on a patient my age should be considered "unethical" and could result in 1) high AN recurrence rates, 2) fusing of my tumor to nerve tissue making almost unavoidable future surgeries complex 3) a likelihood of radiation causing future cancerous brain tumors (sarcomas) and 4) possible "explosion" in teh growth of the tumor from the radiation.

This was from a reputable doctors in a major metropolitan area. Are these facts true? I was extremely shaken following the appts and feel very lost. I need some objective facts.


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DOCTOR"S RESPONSE


Quite a lot of nonsense.

Dr. Change has previoiusly reviewed the accuracy of CyberKnife and GammaKnife. Suffice it to say, there is general agreement, based on very good data, that the accuracy of the CyberKnife is about 0.9 mm from start to finish of the treatment process. The accuracy of the Gamma Knife is a little harder to determine. The mechanical accuracy of the beam pointing is about 0.5 mm. However, there are several other sources of inaccuracy, including the inherent lesser accuracy of MRI compared to CT, frame torsion effects, and manual or automatic positioning. It is reasonable to consider the accuracy to be about 1-2 mm. For all intents and purposes, it is probably best to consider the systems equally accurate. THe only otehr possible advantage of one system over the other is that there is a possibility that fractionated treatment, such as is possible on the CK, may be better for preserving hearing. This subject remains ccontroversial and unproven. We hope soon to start a randomized trial.

The otolaryngologist was employing classic scare techniques. THese guys make me nuts. I don't mind opposing opinions, but scaring patients like this with falsehoods IS unethical in my opinion. I don't know of another physician, regardless of specialty, who considers it unethical to treat AN's with radiosurgery, although some disagree as to whether it is best. Recurrence rates have always been reported in the 2-5% range, equally as good as surgery and without the immediate complications. It is true that surgery following radiosurgery would be more difficult, but our surgeons have done it successfully. With the usual success rate reported to be 98%, why would you want to accept the immediate complications to avoid a 2% chance that your surgeon might have to work harder at your operation in the future? As for future malignancies and explosive growth, these are the goonies under the bed at night. There have been isolated cases of rapid tumor growth following any kind of treatment. There have been rare malignant transformations of the AN's following any kind of treatment (including surgery). Sarcomas and so forth following radiosurgery appear to be extremely rare, even more than after external beam radiation. I can find only one reported case in all the world literature. Compare that with a 13% risk of CSF leak through the scalp wound (with 2.5% requiring re-operation), 9% meningitis, only 80% preservation of facial nerve, 3% permanent epilepsy, and 7% leakage of CSF through the nose (requiring re-operation in 2.5%) as reported in a large series from 2001, therefore with modern techniques.

Clinton A. Medbery, III, M.D.
St. Anthony Hospital Cyberknife Center
Southwest Radiation Oncology
1011 N. Dewey Ave.
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

GM

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2005, 09:34:45 am »
Great post!  Should be put in the Radiation approach area of the board though...
Originally 1.8cm (left ear)...Swelled to 2.1 cm...and holding after GK treatment (Nov 2003)
Gamma Knife University of Virginia  http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/neurosurgery/gammaknife/home-page
Note: Riverside Hospital in Newport News Virginia now has GK!!

RamAir

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2005, 11:26:04 am »
It's nice to finally hear someone else reiterate what I've been saying for five years.


Keep up the discussion...

Mark

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 02:21:31 pm »
Russ,

I certainly don't mind having my post with the transcript from the CPSG board reclassified under the radiosurgery bucket, I struggled with where it was best placed initially. The reason I put it in general discussion was the focus on patients needing to fully research their options and that some docs do misrpresent trleatment issues. I think that was the more meaningful component as opposed to the GK / CK accuracy questions. I would prefer it not be retitled that way as most people seeing it in the archives would totally miss out on the more important aspect. I would ask that the title be modified from what you entered , if possible

Thanks

Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

russ

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 02:45:07 pm »
Hi
  Sorry Mark. I changed the subject title to the original. If you still prefer it another way, please let me know and I'll delete the entire post that you might move and entitle it. Guess I should have stayed out of this.
  Have a nice afternoon and evening!
  Russ

Mark

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 03:12:24 pm »
Hi Russ

Not a problem at all. If it could be retitled as "patient-doc exchange on radiosurgery myths and machine accuracy", that would be better than the subject name I gave it to begin with. Thanks for the help    :)

Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

gloriak

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2005, 04:02:22 am »
Dear Mark

Thank you very much for posting this dialogue on the Forum.

I am new to the Forum - just joined yesterday.  I was diagnosed with AN last Thursday and there is no one where I live (I'm American but living in the Middle East for the past 20 years) who does the Gamma Knife procedure.  So, I have been referred to a hospital in London.  My insurance covers me everywhere EXCEPT the USA.

I have been told I have a provisional appointment for GK at the end of October, but I was afraid to accept it, still trying to research a bit more.  It is hard to decide, because there are a lot of negative things posted and a lot of depression to sift  through.

Your post has made me more comfortable with idea of the Gamma Knife option.  Hopefully today I will confirm my appointment in London.

Thanks again to you and others like you who continue to post comments and help complete strangers who are all of a sudden faced with decisions and with not a lot of places to look to for help and information.  God Bless.

Mary

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2005, 04:39:47 am »
Mark & Russ,

I too was glad to read this.   I generally don't go into anything but the general Discussion.   The whole dialogue was informative.   It let new people know information and it let them know there are other areas on here they can check out for information.   

Great post guys.

Mary

David Wrubel

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Re: AN patient - doctor response from CPSG message board
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2005, 01:43:27 pm »
I would agree that this OT went overboard in describing radiation risks. This was, after all, a small AN. On the other hand, a 37 year old patient should consider the fact that LONG term studies of regrowth rates for CK and GK do not exist yet. Given the fact that statistics for regrowths 15 or 20 years after surgery are not available, and that those durations fall within his lifetime, it is prudent for him, and any young patient, to consider these unknown factors before making a choice.

How does Dr. Medberry define successful surgery after radiation? Is the entire tumor removed? Is the facial nerve left anatomically intact? How much loss of facial mobility is considered a successful outcome? What about hearing loss? And is there a tumor size above which CK or GK is not indicated, and why?
Regards....DW

5+ cm right side AN removed at House Clinic, Drs. Friedman & Hitselberger 4/13/2000, age 47.  Facial nerve intact. No eye problems, headaches, or balance issues. Drove 6 weeks later. 1st biz trip 8 weeks later. Huge tumor....great outcome.