Author Topic: Gamma knife vs Trilogy  (Read 10056 times)

Mark

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2007, 03:10:04 pm »
Sinai has also had CK for awhile and although not as long as georgetown, AN's are one of the easiest things for CK to do and the expereince curve is fairly short from what I'm told. Also, when evaluating a team's radiosurgery experience you have to look at it in terms of all machines , not just CK. Most radiation oncologists have had a number of years of experience in treating AN's with GK or another technology which is relevant in considering how they would do with CK. CK is simply a more advanced technology, but the bilogical treatment and dose protocols are not radically different. To not look at the team's total radiation expereince would be like taking a world class race driver with 20 years of results and discounting it because he / she suddenly started driving a newer faster car than before.


Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

Janice in Al

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  • Confirmed 4-5mm x 2.5 mm AN - Surgery, GK or CK???
Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2007, 04:12:34 pm »
Malakyte,

Do not settle for less than the treatment you want close to home due to no contract between the medical facility and your insurance carrier.  I am the Director of Patient Fiinancial Services at a hospital and it is a common daily practice that we make financial agreements with insurance companies with whom we do not have a contract.  It is a "one time" agreement and can be arranged with the insurance  Rep. and the hospital or medical center prior to treatment.  The hospital just must sign an agreement to provide the service and accept an agreed amount of charges as payment in full. That is all Kaiser is worried about.  Usually 65%, or so, of actual charges and then write off the balance as a contractual adjustment and agree NOT to bill the patient for more than their normal co-pay or deductible.  Our healthcare organization have 300 hospitals & do not have a contract with Kaiser of CA. in most of them either, but do make agreements with Kaiser on a regular basis to treat their patients based on the fact we are their patient's closest convenient location for treatment.  Stand your ground as you are their customer and are always right! Get your HR department to call if necessary to support you and get documentation from your physicians as someone suggested above. As for me, I am in your same boat trying to make a decision and am leaning more toward Trilogy myself after much research.

Thanks for all the input from everyone on this site and especially the links and above Trilogy video. It is great and very encouraging seeing the precision offered and hearing your stories of success and suggestions.  I have an appointment Dec 11th for a consultation.  Best of luck to you.  Janice
Janice
Dx 4-5mm x 2.5mm left AN on 7/8th nerve complex. 20% hearing loss so far. In W&W mode. Researching best txmt options/suggestions.

jemcmac

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2007, 08:32:29 am »
Hi Malakyte,
I understand your concern about high radiation dose of Gamma Knife vs Trilogy.  Gamma Knife is high dose no question about that....but it has 201 gamma rays beam that is when it passed its way through the skull its weak and will not cause any detectable biological effects on the healthy brain tissue...but when it converged to the target tumor then it becomes high dose, enough to destroys the tumor.  Because it is highly focused than trilogy or cyberknife, you know that it will target just the tumor.  Gamma Knife has 0.3mm accuracy while CK is 1mm.  This is why it is done in one session only and as an outpatient.  The team composed of the neurosurgeon, radiation oncology ,medical physicist and nurses and mri tech.
So for small tumors intracranially ...Gamma Knife is still the gold standard. 
I hope you this will prompt you to research more about Gamma Knife as a option treatment for the tumor.
Good luck,
jemcmac@gmail.com

ppearl214

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2007, 08:42:24 am »
hi jemcmac  and welcome to the discussion forums. Good to have you here and have you participating :)

I am a little confused as GK and CK both have approx the same accuracies of 0.86-0.89mm... can you please advise where your figure comes from?  Both are pretty even in accurracy, although GK may be a slight bit off due to head frame calibration.  But, both run about the same for accuracy. 

Again, welcome! :)

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

jemcmac

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2007, 10:04:54 am »
Hi Ppearl,
Thanks for welcoming me.

Check this one site: http://www1.wfubmc.edu/gammaknife/Gamma+Knife+vs+CyberKnife/

I know the stereotactic frame can be a downside of GK but this is all done with conscious sedation and local anesthesia. THe stereotactic frame permits accurate positioning.  THink of it as it is easier to aim on a steady target.  For intracranial tumor, i will still choose GK. 

Regards,
jemcmac

ppearl214

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 11:29:19 am »
hi jemcmac

thanks for the heads up... please know that the Wake Forest GK program has been discussed here at great length with an interesting foundation. Seems Elecktra, the GK mfg, has a financial interest in the GK program there and has been very questionable (esp. their marketing practice of GK at the University hospital) in the past. Please see this thread as I'd like your take on this... info noted in the thread by Dr. Medbury, who performs GK and CK in OKC, seems to note an interesting twist to the program.

http://anausa.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=7e3b7f6c7494e84f63bded67820d0762&PHPSESSID=93b7ee3103e55beb95a88a0ea8a4bc70&topic=921.0


Would love your thoughts on it.

Again, welcome.
Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Mark

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2007, 11:49:34 am »
jemcmac,

I'll add my welcome to the forum to Phyl's as well. I also think the GK is a good choice for treating the AN, particularly if you are comfortable with the one dose protocol outcomes on nerve preservation as opposed to the fractionated radiosurgery approach. So I would certainly support your choice in that context.

That being said, Everyone needs to be careful in basing  conclusions or opinions of different machines on the propaganda pieces published by the hospitals that have a vested interest in them. I would make that statement about any of the machines. Peer reviewed clinical studies are a much more reliable and relevant reference point.

The Wake Forest link you referenced as been posted by others in the past and the misrepresentations made in it regarding CK addressed definitively. The ability to navigate the archives on this site is challenging, but they are there if you want to read them. it is a pretty safe bet this piece was written by elektra , the manufacturer of the GK since the Univ of VA web site has the same information practically verbatim. It should also be noted that the primary radiation oncologist at Wake Forest is the son of an executive at Elektra, although that conflict of interest is not disclosed. In my personal opinion, in reflects poorly on the credibility of an institution like Wake Forest to allow distortions like these to be on this web site. If they want to advertise the positive attributes of the GK that's fine, but to essentially slander a competitive machine is clearly an unprofessional thing to do and probably refelcts the fact that CK placements are eroding their market share.

Specific to the accuracy statistics that were quoted, it is important to recognize the difference between total error  and machine error. the GK .3 mm is essentially machine error while the .89 mm error shown in clinical study for CK is total error. It's apples and oranges and I would suggest only total error is ultimately relevant. The other elements of targeting error are 1) the inherent error variance of the CT scan and in the case of GK only as Phyl pointed out is 2) the error as part of the frame itself. In point of fact, the total error of GK is typically shown to be between 1 to 1.3 mm. The variation is how old the frame is , how much it has been "torked" in usage and how often it has been calibrated. Again, as Phyl indicated both machines provide a very equivalent accuracy for treating AN's. However, GK is also not the definitive "gold standard" anymore in the area of accuracy.

I would still say GK and CK as true radiosurgery machines are better in some capabilities than others but choosing between two comes down to two criteria

If one wants a one dose treatment then both are equally good and it comes down to how big a deal having the frame screwed into the head is as a source of discomfort

If one wants a fractionated approach, then the choice is CK since GK isn't typically used that way given no one wants to endure the frame for 2-3 days.

Again, I think your choice of GK for treatment is great, but hospitals (or manufacturers) putting out distorted information to patients is a real sore spot for me.

Best

Mark

CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

sgerrard

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Re: Gamma knife vs Trilogy
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2007, 09:55:41 pm »
What is up with the "gold standard" business, anyway? It sounds like marketing to me. I have never heard of such terms being used to describe medical procedures and equipment before. Is that an officially designated status, or something they just decided to award themselves?

Besides that, everyone knows that a gold Mastercard is not the best. We want platinum!  :D
8 mm left AN June 2007,  CK at Stanford Sept 2007.
Hearing lasted a while, but left side is deaf now.
Right side is weak too. Life is quiet.