Author Topic: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???  (Read 1763 times)

Mathilda

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Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« on: November 21, 2008, 08:33:39 am »
Hi everyone,

When reading all the comments on problems after surgery/radiation it seems to me that everybody's experience is quite different from what the doctors say is normal after treatment. Why do you think that is? Are the doctors afraid a prospect might scare away from treatment or is it because the patients without complaints are not on the forum?   I'm specifically referring to the time needed to recover fully. The 4 to 8 weeks I was told it would take, do not seem to be realistic for most people here.

Mathilda

PS  It may be my impatience that triggered this question  :-[
Diagnosed in 2006. Recent growth from 7 to 11mm.
Middle fossa surgery at House Ear Clinic on October 16th 2008.
With the results I hoped for: hearing saved; no facial problems.
Just wobbly headed; in need of patience ;)

Jim Scott

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2008, 08:59:16 am »
Mathilda:

You hit upon an important fact - that the majority of the people posting on these forums have (or had) some post-op problems.  The reality is that those who have none often forget about this website as it is primarily a site that offers information and support to AN patients.  If someone's surgery/radiation goes well and they recover rapidly without any serious complications, they don't feel much need for visiting this site and think that they wouldn't have a lot to post about, other than their good experience.  Some may even feel uncomfortable posting about how well they did when others are struggling with their recovery.  Hence, these forums will have many posts from folks with issues and that can sometimes give the impression that everyone who undergoes surgery or radiation has these kinds of issues.  This would be a mistaken assumption.  Of course, we all heal differently and our bodies react differently to radiation and/or invasive surgery.  That's understood.  However, recovery times do vary fairly widely.  The 4 to 8 weeks timeframe is not all that unrealistic for most recovering AN patients.  Now, 4 to 8 weeks (one to two months) may not find every AN patient totally back to where they were before surgery/radiation, but for the majority, it is time enough to heal and be able to return to work, etc., even if the patient is not always functioning at 100% of their full capacity and may have some lingering problems with facial mobility, balance, eye function, fatigue, etc.  They are essentially recovered.

Of course doctors don't want to frighten patients and may offer a slightly optimistic timeframe for recovery, assuming the patient will not suffer any complications from their surgery or radiation.  I was driving again within 2 weeks of my surgery and living a relatively normal life within four weeks.  Was I 100%?  No, but I was able to function quite well and certainly considered myself recovered, even though it took many months before I was truly, fully recovered.  I contend that the 4 to 8 weeks timeframe for recovery used by most doctors is fairly realistic for the majority of AN patients.  However, there are always going to be exceptions.  Frankly, 4 to 8 weeks for recovery seems reasonable to me, understanding that 'recovery' can be a relative term.

Jim
4.5 cm AN diagnosed 5/06.  Retrosigmoid surgery 6/06.  Follow-up FSR completed 10/06.  Tumor shrinkage & necrosis noted on last MRI.  Life is good. 

Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is.  The way we cope with it is what makes the difference.

Brendalu

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2008, 09:00:49 am »
Hi,

My doctor said I wasn't normal!  I always knew that!!  I don't think it is fair that most doctors don't prepare their patients for the not normal which has become the norm for a lot of the ANers I know.  I think in my stats, one in seven comes out of it in the normalcy the  doctors tell you about.  For those of us who lose their hearing there is nothing normal about that.  My ENT told me that most people start losing their hearing at my age.  I quickly explained that on both paternal and maternal sides of my family we didn't have one deaf person or even one who was or is hard of hearing.  He said that isn't normal.  I liked my perfect hearing much better than this ssd.  I didn't have migraines until I had the AN.  So no I don't think reality matches doctors' statements.  I think they all need to rethink what they are saying.  Just my opinion.
Brenda
Brenda Oberholtzer
AN surgery 7/28/05
Peyman Pakzaban, NS
Chester Strunk, ENT

JerseyGirl2

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 09:04:02 am »
I think the "four to eight weeks" recovery time frame is probably a best case (or at least "very good") scenario, and maybe a little optimistic for many patients for a variety of reasons.

However, I don't think doctors are being disingenuous because they think they may scare prospective patients away! I imagine they base their predictions on their past experiences, and I think you, Mathilda, are on the right track when you suggest that "patients without complaints are not on the forum." Obviously that's not true in all cases, but I think folks need to keep reminding themselves that the posters on this forum represent a small percentage of AN experiences, and one has to assume that at least a portion of non-participants came through their treatment with wonderful outcomes.

The only other "medical condition" forum I had ever looked at before this one was on a pilonidal cyst website. It was full of horror stories and one-upsmanship, as in "you think you had it bad? Let me tell you about my experience!" This forum could not be more different, and therein, in my opinion, lies its value. There is so much support and understanding on this site, along with an honest attempt to present a variety of views and a validation of everyone's opinion.

Catherine (JerseyGirl2)
Translab surgery and BAHA implant: House Ear Institute, Los Angeles, 1/2008
Drs. J. House, Schwartz, Wilkinson, and Stefan
BAHA Intenso, 6/2008
no facial, balance, or vision problems either before or after surgery ... just hearing loss
Monmouth County, NJ

Brendalu

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2008, 09:10:49 am »
I do, however, agree that a lot of people who recover at the rate the doctors say is normal, don't come to the support groups or this forum.  They don't want to recognize that others were not as fortunate as they were or are.  They also, as Jim said, don't feel they need the forum any longer.  Then you have the folks who don't take the time to let others help them.  Some of the folks I have been talking to in my area are not internet savy and are not comfortable with putting their hearts on their sleeves so to speak.
It would be interesting to have a survey completed six months after surgery and two years after surgery or radiation or whatever treatment, by everyone (which would probably be impossible because of HEPPA laws) to see what the percentage really is.
Very interesting observation, Jim.  I always like another opinion.  Catherine, you also, have some very valid points.  I am one who wishes my doctors had filled me in on different scenerios.
Brenda
Brenda Oberholtzer
AN surgery 7/28/05
Peyman Pakzaban, NS
Chester Strunk, ENT

sgerrard

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2008, 10:14:07 am »
I think doctors view recovery differently from patients. Historically, AN surgery at one time was pretty risky. In general, after brain surgery the doctors are interested in whether you have a pulse, can breathe on your own, and are able to take in food. Medical sort of things. Once you can walk out of  the hospital, wobbly or not, you have already recovered in one sense in their minds.

They used to think facial palsy was just par for the course with AN surgery, and only more recently have been interested in trying to prevent that. So if you have a lingering symptom or two, they see it as a minor thing. I don't fault them for that, their first concern is rightly whether you are medically sound again - no CSF leaks, things like that. The issue of quality of life after treatment is only just beginning to get some serious attention from the medical world.

I think most patients are functional again by week 8, so the 4-8 week recovery time they quote seems reasonable as far as it goes. We of course want to know when everything is going to be perfect again, just like it was before (was it?), so we tend  to see the recovery as a longer process. It takes more time to adjust to the changes and feel at home with them, and from our point of view total recovery is usually longer.

Steve
8 mm left AN June 2007,  CK at Stanford Sept 2007.
Hearing lasted a while, but left side is deaf now.
Right side is weak too. Life is quiet.

Mathilda

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 10:04:30 am »
Thanks Steve, Jim, Catherine and Brenda. You've all got a point (or two)!

Mathilda
Diagnosed in 2006. Recent growth from 7 to 11mm.
Middle fossa surgery at House Ear Clinic on October 16th 2008.
With the results I hoped for: hearing saved; no facial problems.
Just wobbly headed; in need of patience ;)

Kit W

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2008, 01:14:29 pm »
I have to say that I was doubtful about coming to this site. Why? Because I felt guilty about doing, in my view, so much better than others here. Then I thought back to my time spent in rehabilitation, of how almost everyone was not doing as well as I was. One or two had that 'I can't do it' or 'It's too difficult for me to do'. I got the opportunity to gently point out how I saw my glass as being half full and pushing my self that extra step each day. What I saw in those two people I spoke to was that they saw the glass half empty and as I spoke to them I could see them starting to look at the glass half full.

My Dr only told me my eyesight would improve over about six to twelve months. I don't recall him saying how long it would take me to recover generally except to say things would get better as time goes on.

I'm still not sure I belong here because I am doing so well but if my doing so well gives other hope then maybe I do.

Kit
Don't let jealousy get a hold of you. If it does it will ruin the rest of your life.

My mind often wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
Do I look like I care!

5cm+ AN removed 9/11/08. Dr Tairq Javed. Kennestone Hospital, Marietta, GA

MAlegant

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 03:05:38 pm »
Kit,
You belong here, don't even question it!  When someone is going through a rough time it is so helpful to see that there may be a light at the end of the tunnel after all. Some of us get to "fully-recovered" (whatever that means) quicker than others.  Don't feel guilty; you did undergo brain surgery and that is no picnic!

Mathilda,
From one impatient patient to another: the difference at the four week mark and at the eight week mark for me was a large leap.  Now at 4 months I still don't feel like myself and have ongoing issues.  Even given that, I am doing fine.  Sounds like you are too.  Keep a positive attitude and keep moving forward as best you can.

Best wishes,
Marci
3cmx4cm trigeminal neuroma, involved all the facial nerves, dx July 8, 2008, tx July 22, 2008, home on July 24, 2008. Amazing care at University Hospitals in Cleveland.

Jim Scott

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Re: Reality matching with Dr.'s statements ???
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 03:51:03 pm »
I think doctors view recovery differently from patients. Historically, AN surgery at one time was pretty risky. In general, after brain surgery the doctors are interested in whether you have a pulse, can breathe on your own, and are able to take in food. Medical sort of things. Once you can walk out of  the hospital, wobbly or not, you have already recovered in one sense in their minds.

They used to think facial palsy was just par for the course with AN surgery, and only more recently have been interested in trying to prevent that. So if you have a lingering symptom or two, they see it as a minor thing. I don't fault them for that, their first concern is rightly whether you are medically sound again - no CSF leaks, things like that. The issue of quality of life after treatment is only just beginning to get some serious attention from the medical world.

I think most patients are functional again by week 8, so the 4-8 week recovery time they quote seems reasonable as far as it goes. We of course want to know when everything is going to be perfect again, just like it was before (was it?), so we tend  to see the recovery as a longer process. It takes more time to adjust to the changes and feel at home with them, and from our point of view total recovery is usually longer.

Steve:

I'm going to take the liberty of using your cogent post as a jumping off point for some additional comments.  I know you won't mind. ;)

What I've noticed from reading the stories on these forums is that, surprise, surprise, the neurosurgeons who operate on acoustic neuromas are specialists.  Being specialists, they only focus on their area of expertise, i.e. brain, spine, whatever.  Any post-op issues that are not strictly within their sphere of expertise, such as facial paralysis, eye problems, hearing loss, headaches, etc, are either ignored or the AN patient is referred to another physician that presumably deals with the kind of issue the patient is presenting.  This seems to be quite common and, probably, ethically defensible.

I was fortunate to engage a neurosurgeon that cared as much about my post-op quality of life as he did about successfully debulking my AN without killing me.  He had been doing AN removals for decades, starting back in the 'dark ages' (1970's) when facial paralysis was assumed to be normal following AN removal surgery .  This neurosurgeon was never comfortable with that and had been seeking ways to ensure a better quality of post-op life for his AN patients.  In my case, he de-bulked the tumor, then sent me for FSR, all with the express purpose of not only destroying the tumor but sparing my cranial nerves and helping me to avoid the kinds of problems some AN patients endure following surgery and/or radiation.  He succeeded and it wasn't by luck or chance.  That success was a result of careful planning on my neurosurgeons part along with that of a brilliant radiation oncologist working with him.  Well, that and a lot of prayer, of course.  I give God the ultimate credit for my successful surgery & radiation.  Unfortunately, this kind of surgeon is somewhat rare.  Most care only about getting the AN patient through the surgery alive and relatively well, as Steve pointed out.  If you can stagger out of the hospital, you're 'recovered', in their view.  Basically, they've done what they were paid for - removed the tumor - and now, you're either on your own or another doctors problem.  This seems to be the norm.

As I noted in my previous post (and Steve concurred), total recovery is usually quite a bit longer.  For us impatient types, which seem to be the majority, the healing/recovery time is always too long.  As Steve mentioned, the 4 to 8 week timeframe may be optimistic - but not fallacious.

Jim

4.5 cm AN diagnosed 5/06.  Retrosigmoid surgery 6/06.  Follow-up FSR completed 10/06.  Tumor shrinkage & necrosis noted on last MRI.  Life is good. 

Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is.  The way we cope with it is what makes the difference.