Author Topic: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?  (Read 8151 times)

lholl36233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« on: August 29, 2009, 11:55:53 am »
I hope the answer is no but was anyone told surgery to remove their tumor would result in guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?  Did anyone notice facial issues before surgery?  If so, what should I look out for?  When I smiile, my left cheek (tumor is on the left) is actually higher than the right cheek by a little bit.  Would that not be the case if I had facial issues?

Thank you.
Proton Radiation for my hemangioma at MGH December 2009.  Hearing has improved.  Doing great!

leapyrtwins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10826
  • I am a success story!
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 12:10:08 pm »
Facial nerve damage is always a possibility with surgery, but there is no guarantee you will - or won't - have it.  Basically no doctor can guarantee you anything 100%.  Like us, they are only human  :)

I had retrosigmoid, supposedly known for causing facial nerve damage, yet I only had slight damage post op.  It only lasted a day or two and a single dose of steroids took care of it.

Everyone is different - but tumor size and location has a lot of bearing on your outcome.  Experience of the surgeon(s) is also a factor - which is one of the reasons the ANA recommends finding a doc with lots of experience in treating ANs.

Facial nerves - unlike hearing nerves - are resilient and do regenerate.  Lots with facial nerve damage find improvement over time.

Jan

Retrosig 5/31/07 Drs. Battista & Kazan (Hinsdale, Illinois)
Left AN 3.0 cm (1.5 cm @ diagnosis 6 wks prior) SSD. BAHA implant 3/4/08 (Dr. Battista) Divino 6/4/08  BP100 4/2010 BAHA 5 8/2015

I don't actually "make" trouble..just kind of attract it, fine tune it, and apply it in new and exciting ways

lholl36233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 12:21:25 pm »
Thank you Jan.

I was told surgery would guarantee damage to the facial nerve.  If that were to happen, I'd need a graft which is never as good as your own facial nerve.  This doctor has alot of experience.  Even though I have a hemangioma and not an AN, he has done hundreds of AN surgeries.  I trut him. 

We'll see what happens with my 10/7 appointment about getting proton beam therapy...
Proton Radiation for my hemangioma at MGH December 2009.  Hearing has improved.  Doing great!

Jim Scott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7241
  • 1943-2020 Please keep Jim's family in your hearts
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 12:24:23 pm »
Laura ~

No, at the risk of disputing your doctor, which I really hesitate to do, I have to state that facial nerve damage is not a certainty with AN removal surgery.  As Jan stated, the exact location of the tumor as well as the surgeon's skill are major factors in avoiding facial nerve damage.  I had a large AN, underwent retrosigmoid AN removal surgery to de-bulk the tumor and did not experience facial nerve damage.  Many AN surgery patients have had a similar experience.  Unfortunately, there are a host of variables present with acoustic neuroma removal and nothing can be 'guaranteed'.  If you do have some facial nerve issues now, they may or may not be alleviated with surgery.  Although this lack of specificity regarding possible outcomes may be maddening, it remains the reality when dealing with an acoustic neuroma.  Nothing is 'guaranteed', one way or the other.  As to the question of whether your doctor is entirely correct about 'guaranteed' facial nerve damage with AN removal surgery, you'll have to make that call.

Jim
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 01:57:15 pm by Jim Scott »
4.5 cm AN diagnosed 5/06.  Retrosigmoid surgery 6/06.  Follow-up FSR completed 10/06.  Tumor shrinkage & necrosis noted on last MRI.  Life is good. 

Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is.  The way we cope with it is what makes the difference.

lholl36233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 02:35:28 pm »
Thanks Jim.

The location of my tumor is the problem.  The doctor said an AN would be easier to remove.  My hemangioma is part in the IAC and part in the Petroux Apex.

I don't have any facial issues right now.  I'm just being paranoid.
Proton Radiation for my hemangioma at MGH December 2009.  Hearing has improved.  Doing great!

epodjn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 03:11:58 pm »
I didn't think I had any facial issues either, until after surgery. Then I realized that I already had been experiencing, to a lesser degree, some of the same things. I had a hard time keeping tooth paste in my mouth and made a mess when I brushed my teeth. I had a hard time drinking from certain glasses, I had a numb spot near my mouth, I didn't have any problem at all keeping my eye open when I put mascara on or eye drops in. I was already at a BH2 and had no idea.
Left side 3.2cm AN/FN removed 12/8/08 Dr's. Shelton and Reichman. SSD, facial paralysis,taste issues, lateral tarrsoraphy 6/25/09,scheduled for eye and nasal valve surgery 6/22/11 life is GOOD!

lholl36233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 03:21:32 pm »
Thank you.  That gives me an idea of some things to look out for.
Proton Radiation for my hemangioma at MGH December 2009.  Hearing has improved.  Doing great!

Lilan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 06:13:54 pm »
Lholl, I am surprised they'd say "guaranteed." I had a hemangioma also and I believe they start in generally the same place (geniculate ganglion area where there are a lot of blood vessels), and mine also extended into the IAC. (I had terrible dizziness, unusual for a hemangioma.) The worst quote I heard for facial function was 50% chance of severing the nerve in surgery.

Obviously I defer to your doctors on your specific anatomy and situation. But generally:

The advice for hemangiomas used to be that facial-nerve damage was so likely in surgery that it was better to do nothing -- the heman itself would destroy the facial nerve, too, but it would take longer for nature to do it. Kind of "enjoy your facial function while it lasts." Then get a nerve graft after your function declines to Grade III.

But those poor odds for surgery was when they thought they had to take out 100% of it or it would grow right back.

House has a new study -- I don't think it's even been published yet -- in which they watched patients where a bit was left behind to save the facial nerve, and it found that these do not grow back in decades (and counting). So now they advise being less aggressive in removal -- leave a little behind, but get most of it out and also remove the bone around it so it has plenty of room in there if it *were* to grow back at all. {Also, once there is room to breathe in there, radiation would be an option if it acted up again. Which, again, they show zero patients with regrowth; the only patient who had some growth had declined to have it (or let's say the bulk of it) removed.}

Their study also shows great results with facial nerve function after surgery for those who go in with great function. Basically, patients came out with what they went in with or better.

IMO, and I did a lot of research over a year, this study is a game-changer for hemangiomas. To me, in my decision-making (and I had early facial symptoms, so that prodded me forward), it seemed to me that it no longer seems as wise to just wait and let nature do its destructive work -- if you have Grade I or II now, you have very good odds of preserving that (in the right surgical hands).

Thus, if you are not interested in consulting with House, I would strongly suggest you ask your own doctors if they are familiar with this NEW (very new) study from House of 19 patients*, and if not, if they can get their hands on it, and see if that impacts what they tell you. I would discuss very carefully with them what they think your odds are in surgery and in "letting nature take its course." Have they treated hemans before? Even an experienced skull-base surgeon has probably seen very few of them, and I think they need to do some research on your behalf.

(19 is a lot for a hemangioma study, as you'll soon find if you're researching! They are rare in the literature. Though it may not be published yet, it was presented at the facial nerve symposium in Rome earlier this year so may be available to them.)

Meanwhile, if you opt to W&W, I would be alert to any facial twitching, dry eye or "big eye" appearing in photographs (eye on the affected side looking larger or "more wide open" than the other).



Facial nerve hemangioma. Probable dx 7/2008 confirmed 4/2009. Combo middle fossa and translab to remove the blood vessel malformation and snip ruined hearing and balance nerves by Drs. House and Brackmann @ House 6/2009. Doing great!

saralynn143

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1822
  • Sarey Sarey Quite Contrary
    • MVD diary
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 06:30:13 pm »
I'm sure the doctor is trying to be forthright in the light of his own experiences. If you are able, I would seek a second opinion.

Sara
MVD for hemifacial spasm 6/2/08
left side facial paresis
 12/100 facial function - 7/29/08
 46 - 11/25/08
 53 - 05/12/09
left side SSD approx. 4 weeks
 low-frequency hearing loss; 85% speech recognition 7/28/08
1.8 gram thin profile platinum eyelid weight 8/12/08
Fitted for scleral lens 5/9/13

Lilan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2009, 07:55:32 pm »
PS: HeyCT also had a heman removed this year without losing her facial nerve.

http://anausa.org/forum/index.php?topic=9664.0




Facial nerve hemangioma. Probable dx 7/2008 confirmed 4/2009. Combo middle fossa and translab to remove the blood vessel malformation and snip ruined hearing and balance nerves by Drs. House and Brackmann @ House 6/2009. Doing great!

Syl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • Forgive me. I'm having an AN moment.
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 09:34:21 pm »
I had retrosig and was told that facial paralysis was a risk with all surgeries, but higher with retrosig. I did have facial weakness 17 days post-op. Got am rx of Prednisone, and my face was back to its old self before I finished my rx.

Syl
1.5cm AN rt side; Retrosig June 16, 2008; preserved facial and hearing nerves;
FINALLY FREE OF CHRONIC HEADACHES 4.5 years post-op!!!!!!!
Drs. Kato, Blumenfeld, and Cheung.

sgerrard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3475
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 10:26:49 pm »
House has a new study -- I don't think it's even been published yet -- in which they watched patients where a bit was left behind to save the facial nerve, and it found that these do not grow back in decades (and counting).

Lilan,

That was a good post on hemangiomas, thank you for that. Dr. Tew at the Symposium had much the same view regarding ANs, when they are encroaching on the facial nerve. Leaving a bit behind, and radiating it if needed, can make a big difference in outcomes.

I also have a tendency to agree "that it no longer seems as wise to just wait and let nature do its destructive work." When tumors are up to mischief, acting sooner makes more sense to me.

Thanks for adding such good information on how hemangiomas work and how they can be treated.

Steve
8 mm left AN June 2007,  CK at Stanford Sept 2007.
Hearing lasted a while, but left side is deaf now.
Right side is weak too. Life is quiet.

chocolatetruffle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 11:02:02 pm »
i had translab and the only facial weakness i had was inability to raise my eyebrows for 2 weeks and a half numb tongue for 6 mths.  nothing is guaranteed but there are risks besides facial weakness, ie CF leaks, infection etc. i think the doctor is just covering his bases and making sure he is not liable for any promises.  hope this helps!

chocolatetruffle


2.8 cm left AN
Translab @ House/St Vincent's 11/27/07
Drs. Brackmann, Schwartz, Wilkinson, Stefan

lholl36233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2009, 03:04:21 am »
Thanks for your input everyone.  This doctor in Boston was my second opinion.  I will ask about everything you have mentioned next time I see him.  I think the doctor said, guaranteed damage but he probably meant, "I've done enough of the surgeryies to know there is a high risk of facial nerve damage."  Of course, there are never any guarantees. I think he just wants me to try the proton beam therapy first since I currently don't have any facial issues.  I'm definintely not watch and wait anymore.
Proton Radiation for my hemangioma at MGH December 2009.  Hearing has improved.  Doing great!

Lilan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Guaranteed damage to the facial nerve?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 06:26:00 am »
I am also surprised that he wants to try proton beam. Has he ever treated a heman that way, or can he point to any outcomes to give you some idea what to expect?

I ask because I could not find a single study, not even a single case, of a heman being radiated. I was none too excited about the idea of surgery and asked specialists high and low from coast to coast over the course of a year and could not find a single one willing to radiate a heman, up to and including Dr. Adler, who invented the Cyberknife.

(Some mentioned that AFTER surgery, if it recurred, that might be an option -- but they didn't want to radiate an untreated one, at least not in my case -- so I'm very curious to know if he has done this and what the outcomes have been!) (It also turns out that it would've been disastrous in my case to radiate -- there was no room for any post-radiation swelling without facial nerve damage, and I think they feared the radiation "overlap" with a full-sized heman would've threatened the nerve also.)

Two opinions is probably not enough for a heman. Too many doctors, even those very experienced with ANs, simply have never seen one. So don't be shy about continuing to hunt, or push the ones you have to explain everything.

I hope I'm not overwhelming you! -- just want you to benefit from my experience over the last year -- I had *such* a hard time finding any info or support specific to hemans and on my own learned quite a lot.  ;)  PS: I am not a big surgery-pusher -- whatsoever!! As I said, I tried long and hard to avoid surgery!! But I had an awful lot of specialists explain to me why radiation was NOT a good idea for me. So if you have a 1cm heman, which is large for a heman, I want you to be absolutely sure (within normal reason!) what they feel you can expect with that route.


Facial nerve hemangioma. Probable dx 7/2008 confirmed 4/2009. Combo middle fossa and translab to remove the blood vessel malformation and snip ruined hearing and balance nerves by Drs. House and Brackmann @ House 6/2009. Doing great!