Author Topic: Comments – web page – cksociety.org -- technology_comparisons  (Read 3543 times)

bob_michigan

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Below are some comments about the following web page that was recommended to me ...
http://www.cksociety.org/PatientInfo/radiosurgery_stereotactic_technology_comparisons.asp
 
System with the most experience --- appropriately enough, the cksociety web page describes Gamma Knife (GK) first ... developed in 1950's, then started in 1968.  Also, the web page documents the GK advantage of “Over 30 years of clinical use with a large number of studies in the medical literatureâ€?, so that's good.  CyberKnife was approved by FDA in July 1999, so if officially approved treatments started immediately, that is 30 years after Gamma Knife in terms of development of experience, quality control refinements, etc.

Number of patient treatments for each technology
--- the 200,000 patients treated world-wide --- that number could applies to GK alone as of the year 2003
....See:  .........  http://www.irsa.org/radiosurgery.html
..............leaving relatively little treatment by any FSR (modified linac or imrt) or CyberKnife

It is both interesting and frustrating that I have not been able to obtain the number of treatments for anything but Gamma Knife --- I know the “ over 200,000â€? for GK, so I wonder how many treatments have occurred for EACH of those "modified linac treatment options" and “IMRT treatment optionsâ€? that I inquire about in the following topic:  Questions – about "modified LINAC" options and IMRT options“

Gamma Knife head frame attachment – pins, I believe, not screws  The cksociety web page refers to "external metal frame attached to the skull by four screws".  Yes, screws are needed to press 4 pins into the skull. but I don't think that there are screws being sunk into the skull.  Mayo Clinic describes it similarly:  "attached to your head with four screws", but later on their web page refers to a possible immediate symptom of "pain at the pin sites".  The GK center near me told me "attached by four pins, not screws, into the skull" if I recall correctly.  And then there is the reference at http://www.irsa.org/treatment.html that the pins are secured with a small drill! (not correct ... screws are tightened (likely with screws) to press the pins into the skull, as far as I know).

Gamma Knife head frame attachment – NOT metal  The cksociety web page refers to "external metal frame attached to the skull by four screws".  Since the MRI technicians will not let a metal frame into their unit, I don't think that there is ANY metal ---- including the screws!

Gamma Knife head frame – a small number of patients experience pain (as I understand it) The web page indicates that the GK procedure "requires the placement of a somewhat painful stereotactic head frame".  That is an interesting way to describe a basic part of a treatment that has been used for over 200,000 treatments!  As far as I know, some small percentage of patients do experience a headache, and most of the time the headache is addressed within a relatively short amount of time (with immediate pain medication before the patient leaves), sometimes also followed with the patient's over-the-counter pain medication during the first 24 hours after treatment.  (I have read of a few that had more significant symptoms, but they must have been an even smaller percentage of GK patients.)

Gamma Knife application to “certain areasâ€? There is a statement on the web page that "It can be difficult to treat patients with lesions located in certain areas (e.g. the periphery) of the brain."  It certainly would be best to have one or two key examples of “certain areasâ€?  Without information the reader is left with a negative impression without any associated knowledge to justify having that impression.  I respecfully suggest that it's important to make an improvement there (in case anyone associated with that web site is reading this).

Bob
2.3 cm diam 2.6 cm long AN
   neurosurgeon reports longest dimension ("tail") is 3 cm
Diagnosed (Feb 06)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 06:42:06 pm by bob_michigan »
2.3 cm diam 2.6 cm long AN
   neurosurgeon reports longest dimension ("tail") is 3 cm
Diagnosed in Feb 06

bob_michigan

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
An incentive for GK – widespread use
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2006, 06:09:20 pm »
As implied above, it would be good to know how many people have been treated by each radiosurgery option.  Even the GK is a challenge for getting the numbers, but the other treatment options are even bigger challenges.  As indicated in the other forum topic, there may be very many variations of non-GK treatment options ---- so I suppose that I will never get the numbers, much less the medical journal reports on their treatment outcomes.  Thus, the result might be a significant incentive to have a GK treatment, since the base of experience is strong and the reported outcomes are more clearly and solidly documented in medical journals that provide the treatment outcomes.  As the cksociety web page clearly and honestly documented, there are 30 years of clinical use and a large number of studies reported, such as in medical journals, certainly documenting the treatment outcomes.

I don't believe that one should base the decision on only this factor, but it should not be ignored.
2.3 cm diam 2.6 cm long AN
   neurosurgeon reports longest dimension ("tail") is 3 cm
Diagnosed in Feb 06

Mark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Bob,

 A couple of points to your comments.

1) GK is clearly a proven technology and will always have greater numbers because of it's time frame (30 plus years). In that sense what it has primarily accomplished is the basic biological premise of how radiosurgery can effectively control AN's ( and other cranial tumors). That biological fact transfers to all subsequent generations of machines. So CK, Brainlab, etc all carry the same pedigree in terms of the proven nature of radiosurgery regardless if they were developed in 1990 or 2000 or whatever. That is what the web site is addressing. The CK , for example, has enhanced accuracy without the required headframe and while not relevant to AN patients is able to offer radiosurgery outside of the cranial area which is a huge medical advancement. GK has certainly been a very effective treatment option and still is, but it's disadvantage is a) the headframe b) slightly less accuracy than CK and c) the inability to do FSR vs. one mass dose. Does that mean GK isn't viable , absolutely not, but to make a judgement based on one is better because more people have used it is analogous to choosing a 1975 pinto over a 2006 BMW for the same reason.

2) Whether the headframe with GK uses "pins" or "screws", the videos I have seen of it require a drill to allow them to contact the boney structure of the skull and provide the "frame of reference" for the APS ( automatic positioning system) from the CT scan. Clearly significant doses of Novacaine or equivalent are administered in advance to lessen patient discomfort. Is it unbearable , probably not to anyone avoiding surgery and I'll let those that have had it say whether it was uncomfortable.

3) While conclusive studies are not yet out to determine that staged radiosurgery provides better hearing and facial nerve preservation than one dose, preliminary (3-7 years) results seem to indicate that. If you want that option GK is generally not the choice because no one wants the headframe for 3-5 days. But if you're comfortable with the One dose protocol then either a CK or GK option is equally viable. Then it becomes a decision of choosing the headframe with no clinical improvement in accuracy of the treatment.

Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

ppearl214

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7449
  • ANA Forum Policewoman - PBW Cursed Cruise Director
Hi Bob,

thanks for sharing this all with us.  I am on the cksupport board and know the post that you choose this.

There is no denying that CK and GK are both very viable options. Both have their advantages, absolultely.  GK is the "granddaddy" of them all, the one with the longer, proven track record. One dose vs FSR also.  I looked at GK and CK, since I am fortunate that both are offered to me locally here in Boston. What helped me with my decision of CK is the following:

1. Accuracy - CK has a proven record of coming within .87mm of the AN... GK accuracy is not as good.
2. Headframe or frameless - either way was fine with me....
3. Single dose vs FSR - again, either was fine with me.

I had to base my decision between the 2 on individual factors:  the location of my AN.  The size of my AN.  The current hearing preservation that both offered and my current (yet, diminishing) level of hearing.  Facial nerve.  Locations of treatment.  

All in all, it was VERY individual to me. I extensively researched both.  Both options worked for me... yet, keeping in mind my particular situation, I made my choice.    I know many that have had GK and are doing great!  For me, it's all based on individual situations, the location of the treatment and how many AN's they have handled.

It's late, I'm tired, gawd, I hope I made sense.

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

russ

  • Guest
"GK accuracy is not as good"



  Last I read from an actual GK facility employee was accurate to .66 mm.

  Radiation is radiation is radiation and 100s of a mm. do not matter.

  What really matters is initial hit. All varieties are nerve/tissue sparing.

  My 2 cents after reading 100s of pt. stories and reading same # of articles and consulting with Dr after Dr for 6 1/2 years.

  Russ

Mark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
In response to the claim made by Russ regarding GK accuracy being .66 mm,  I would refer him to the following explanation of total machine error. In terms of the ultimate question as to how significant the difference in accuracy is in treatment outcomes I do not know and I do not think it should be a factor in someone choosing GK over CK or vice versa. However, the clear intention in increased accuracy is to limit exposure and potential impact to surrounding healthy structures. In that context, I find it hard to understand how one would not argue that it is not a benefit

Mark

Posted by: Steven Chang, MD - 3/1/2004 (9:30 p.m.)

This issue of accuracy is an important issue that is not asked by as many patients as it should be. A novel could be written on this issue, but the following is a short summary of what I feel are the key points.

First, let's talk about the gamma knife. Many people claim that the gamma knife has an accuracy of 0.5 mm. This is a claim by the manufacturer of the gamma knife, and thus is quoted by some doctors who do not have any information to back up this claim. There are 2 main problems with this claim. First, as a patient, I would not directly beleive any information quoted from a manufacturer without published medical data. A medical publication from 1994 in the journal of Neurosurgery reviewed four different stereotactic metal frames, all of which are used for frame based radiosurgery including the gamma knife. Over 21,000 tests were performed, and the accuracy of these metal frames was shown to be between 1.2 and 1.6 mm (a far cry from the 0.5 mm error quoted by some).

Now the situation gets even more complex. For a gamma knife system, the frame error (1.2 to 1.6 mm) is only a portion of the TOTAL error. On the gamma knife, the total error includes the error from the frame, the error from the imaging scans (CT or MRI), and the error within the machine itself. The gamma knife, like any machine, can be calibrated on install, but like any machine, the calibration does not eliminate all the error. Thus, when you add the frame error (1.2 to 1.6 mm) to the imaging error to the machine error, you are likely to get a total error in the 1.2 to 2.0 mm range.

Finally, as far as the metal frames, over time they can fatigue and bend (perhaps from just use or even accidentally dropped on the ground). Metal frames are supposed to be check and calibrated on a regular basis. Frames that bend have increasing errors, and are supposed to be "decomissioned" if their error becomes too large. How does a patient know if the frame they will be treated on has increasing errors from prior use? It is up to the vendor and physicians to perform these tests, but this frame evaluation may not be done on a regular basis.

As far as a conventional non-Cyberknife LINAC, these also use a frame, and thus have the same frame error as that for the gamma knife. There is also the same imaging error, and machine error, so total error is, in my opinion, the same as for the gamma knife. The two published accuracy papers on conventional non-Cyberknife LINAC show total system error (frame + imaging + machine) to be on the order of 1.6 to 1.8 mm.

As far as the Cyberknife, there is no frame error since there is no frame. However, there is a comparable error introduced by the need to track the patient. We looked at the tracking error, imaging error, and machine error on the Cyberknife, and the total sum of all these errors was 1.1 mm (published in Neurosurgery). We found this to be very interesting since the total sum of all the errors for this test was lower than the the frame error alone for stereotactic frames.

Bottom line:
1. Most doctors quote accuracy numbers without any knowledge of where the numbers come from or evidence supporting their claim. I would ALWAYS ask your doctor to provide you with a copy of the ACTUAL PUBLISHED ACCURACY DATA, not some verbal quoted vendor number. If they do not have published accuracy information to share with you, how do you know it is true?

2. Be careful that the accuracy data that you are being quoted consists of total clinical accuracy, and not a subcomponent of the total error. It does no good if you say frame accuracy is 1.0 mm, but then imaging errors and machine error introduce another 1 mm error. In such case the total error can be 2 mm, and quoting 1 mm would be misleading the patient.
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

russ

  • Guest
Hi
  Re "a total error in the 1.2 to 2.0 mm range", I wonder if Dr. Chang can find the EXACT center of an irregularly shaped AN w/o a degree of error?
  Russ

Mark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Geez Russ,

I suspect Dr. Chang could find the center of irregularly shaped AN better than you or I, but fortunately I suspect those new fangled things called computers probably take care of the problem pretty well. In fact, one of the CK primary advantages over other systems which are based on fixed targeting is the ability to treat irregularly shaped tumors evenly thus avoiding the hot and cold spots which are possible with fixed beam, even if there are 201 as with GK.

From the CK society site glossary terms section

Isocentric Treatment Planning

Isocentric Treatment Planning
   All SRS devices (with the exception of the CyberKnife System) are restricted to using a fixed isocenter as the standard for treatment.

Isocentric treatment - or multi-isocentric treatment - involves packing the lesion with a single - or multiple, overlapping - spherically shaped dose distributions.

Hot spots are areas where treatment volumes overlap, causing some tissue to be overdosed with radiation. Excessive radiation exposure of normal tissue increases the risk of complications, especially with critical structures such as the highly radiosensitive optic chiasm and acoustic nerves.

Cold spots are under-dosed areas within the target that receive a less than optimal amount of radiation dose. In situations of under-dosing, there is a risk that all tumor cells will not be destroyed.

Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

russ

  • Guest
  Error of 1mm whether GK, ST, CK, FSR, Proton Beam?

  I doubt any Dr can find the center of an irregularily shaped AN with 100% accuracy.
  Even if he /she must try, they still need to determine a target.
  If one thinks of just 1 mm., the pt. best not breath, cough, sneeze, yawn or anything, whether plastic face mask or metal ring. MRIs are not even accurate to 1 mm. They have an inherrant error factor of + or - 1 - 2 mm.
  My feeling is to quibble over a mm. is ridiculous.
  Supper seems reasonable now though. It's pretty calculable ( for supper ).
  Have nice nights everyone!
 
  Russ