the new health bill?

[sgerrard]

…Since no one is with me on this, I'm going to take my ball and go home.

I'm with you Jan..  I'm taking my ball and going home too…  

... With that, I'll pick up my own ball and exit this ridiculously long thread.  

At this point, it is really all predictions anyway. What will happen in the future is not yet a fact, and remember that most people picked Kansas in the NCAA tourney this year. The only facts so far are that the House passed a bill, the Senate passed a version of it, the House accepted the Senate version, the House passed a resolution bill, the Senate accepted the resolution, and the president signed on the dotted line. Here and elsewhere I have read and heard a wide range of opinions on what it all means, most of them distinctly tinged with a political outlook and good helping of either pessimism or optimism. None of it so far is definitive, nor can it be.

Early on the mods wondered what might become of this thread. I suggested we keep it as a place for members to express what they feel about this event, and I think it has served that purpose reasonably well. It is not possible for it to answer the questions about how the changes will impact each of us. It is possible for it to morph into a raggedy political discussion, something the ANA does not want on this forum, and something that can be found on plenty of other websites already.

Perhaps it is time to move on, and let this thread fade out. We can do the popcorn and dancing videos in one of the other AN Community topics.

Steve

[4cm in Pacific Northwest]

... It is not possible for it to answer the questions about how the changes will impact each of us. It is possible for it to morph into a raggedy political discussion, something the ANA does not want on this forum, and something that can be found on plenty of other websites already.

Perhaps it is time to move on, and let this thread fade out. We can do the popcorn and dancing videos in one of the other AN Community topics.

Steve

Agreed.

DHM

[Larry]

DHM,

This is an interesting topic and being a diversionist myself, the flash dance thing was, well, different. Good shots of the opera house and bridge but!

Health is a topic that afeects everyone and more so us inflicted folk. Down under, our forecer interventionist government is now trying to take over all of the country's health. Until now, health is managed by the states and funded largely through GST revenue (sales tax). The feds want to take it over but without boring everyone on the details, there is nothing new or better like no more beds, no more doctors or nurses. The only thing I can see is more admin costs. Our federal government are so bad at running things they have botched every project they have started. Too many to list here unless anyone is interested. My take on health is keep the government out of it. Government cannot run a business and health is a business. Governments are too big and clumsy and have far too much bureacracy in them to effectively manage anything progressive.

take care

Laz.

[grega]

Thanks Laz, for your viewpoint.  It's very important for US citizens to hear input from those in other countries (e.g. Australia, Canada, UK, France, etc) where the type of health care being proposed for this country is now in place.  Sounds scary.

Thanks Steve, for your list of facts, with which I don't disagree.  But one important fact that's been omitted is that, during the entire time our representatives were trying to pass health care reform, the vast majority of citizens were, and still are, against what was passed, as well as the process by which it was done.  "Our" non-reading, uncaring representatives are ....  .. not representing their constituents. 

Greg

[mk]

I understand that it has been proposed to "fade" out this thread, but I couldn't resist to this.

With all due respect, I will protest to the statement that what's happening in Canada, Europe and other countries is "scary". How "scary" is it to use health care resources for free (yes, of course payed by taxes but available to everyone without discrimination), showing only your health card, without ever having to sign a paper or seeing a bill? There are pros and cons, weaknesses to all systems and the answers are not obvious.  Having lived in both Europe and Canada, I might say that most of the rest of the globe views some aspects of the health care in the States, like not having universal coverage for all, as "scary".

Marianna

[yardtick]

Yesterday I ended up in the ER with a brain wreck of a headache.  My bloody occipital nerve is really doing me in.  My card was swiped, blood pressure taken, questions asked, medications noted, doctor, saw me, nurse gave me an injection of toradol in the rump and dilaudid orally.  The nurse asked me to wait to talk to the doctor.  The doctor popped back in about 20 minutes later, discussed who debulked my tumour and how did I find out about Dr Rutka at the Toronto General.  Turns out he did a rotation with Dr Rutka when he was in Med school and thinks very highly of him.  He also asked if I was feeling better and at that point I was, so he gave me a script for dilaudid since I already have toradol to get me through until Thursday when I see the neurologist.

I was there a total of three hours and forty-five minutes.  It cost me nothing.  Today had a regular scheduled appointment with my family doctor, swipe of the card, no charge.  MRI was done almost two weeks ago, swipe of the card no charge, D&C March 31, swipe of the card no charge, I see the neurologist this Thursday, swipe of the card no charge, I see Dr Rutka May 26, swipe of the card no charge. 

I do not think of Ontario, Canada health care system as scary.  I think of it as a blessing.  Thank you Marianna for your eloquent words.  You write so much better than I do.

Anne Marie 

[saralynn143]

Unfortunately I do not see the American health care system as moving toward swipe of the card, no charge.

Sara

[Soundy]

Unfortunately I do not see the American health care system as moving toward swipe of the card, no charge.

Sara

I don't either .

[Pooter]

Anne Marie,

The untold story is that it wasn't exactly "free".  It costs somebody something, very likely you in the form of higher taxes or something like that.  So, "free" only means you didn't have to pay at the time of services, but like it or not you (and likely other people as well) paid for your medical treatments.  Also very likely is that the cost for services are paid for by people who don't use the system to that extent.  I'm not faulting you for using it.  That's a great deal for you.  The flip side is the person who has to pay those extra taxes or whatever even though they NEVER use the system.

The plain fact is that medical care isn't cheap.  It's ALWAYS expensive for someone.  It just may not be you.

I don't see the US system becoming a swipe and it's covered kind of system either.  Likely, we won't be the country with the most medical advances or breakthrough innovations in technology or procedure anymore.  Nobody wants to pay for it.  The rest of the world will suffer for it, in my opinion.   Where is the motivation by companies to create new drugs, or new treatments?  I seriously doubt that the noble cause of helping mankind will be the motivating factor.

We've been down this road before, you and I.  Respectfully, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree again.

Brian

[ppearl214]

ain't this thread dead yet? 

*sits back with diet cinnamon rice cakes to work on girly figure....*

[leapyrtwins]

I'm with you, Phyl.

I thought this thread had finally died a well deserved death.  Why it was resurrected is beyond me  

[nteeman]

Ah, Marianna and Anne Marie, thank you for your words of sanity but unfortunately the mindset of those in the US against Health Reform is set and they do not listen or read the truth in what you say. There is so much propaganda here as to all the terrible things that will happen once there is health care for all it is unbelievable as per some of the silly posts here. As the many countries that have it prove it can work. It may not be perfect but it certainly would be a lot better than what we have now.

Thanks again and I cheer your words of sanity.

Neal

[Pooter]

Neal,

with all due respect, where has anyone spread fear or propoganda?  Mostly, I've seen people stick to the facts. The discussion has denegraded itself to name calling or fear mongering, in my estimation. I did, however, point out the ugly truth that healthcare isn't cheap and "free" often only means "free at the time of service" or "free to you" or both. Somebody is always going to pay the bill. Either with higher taxes, rationed services, by those that don't use the system at all, etc.

If that's propoganda, show me where I'm wrong. Show me one system in the world that provides healthcare services without raising taxes, rationing services or pays for itself by those that don't even use the system. Just one. It doesn't exist.

What Obama, Pelosi and their ilk won't tell you is that a government, Universal coverage system isn't really "free" at all. You will pay for it one way or another. "Free" very often doesn't really mean "free".

Show me where I'm wrong because I'm willing to back off my position if I can be shown that "free" truly does mean "free" in this isolated case.

Brian

[mk]

I never said it is "free". Nothing is free. Constructing roads is not free, nor is anything else available in a civilized society. I said that it is "paid by taxes and available to everyone without discrimination".

The main difference is a philosophical one. Should health care be "for profit", governed by business rules, or is it a right that should be accessible for everyone (so everyone should pitch in, even if they don't use it "at the moment"). Of course, everyone's opinion on this is well respected and there are valid arguments on both sides, as this lengthy thread has shown.

One last point: I have seen the argument again and again that the private sector is more efficient than government. This may very well be in many cases, but the recent economic crisis which was mainly caused by the private sector proved that this is not always true.

Marianna

[sgerrard]

The whole concept of insurance, be it home, car, or health, is based on the idea that everyone pays in, and the few who need it get the benefits. That has been true in the past, and will continue to be true in the future. For each one of us in the US who had their AN treatment covered by insurance, there are many people who paid premiums, or whose employers paid premiums, and didn't have claims that year. That's how it works.

Steve