Author Topic: So confused....  (Read 7684 times)

AZ JB

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So confused....
« on: December 30, 2011, 02:19:15 pm »
Hi everyone, it's Judy, Bob's wife.  I just thought I'd give you an update on Bob's AN journey.  Bob & I have now talked with 3 doctors -- Mayo (in AZ), Barrows (in AZ), & a phone consult with HEI -- we're also waiting for a call from Dr. Chang.  All the docs. feel that Bob can W & W for a while.  Both docs. in AZ recommended an MRI at 3 mo. from first detection because they feel (from what we told them) it could be growing, but the doc. at HEI said that would be too soon & unnecessary.  They also all agreed that if Bob were to choose surgery, he's a candidate for retrosigmoid, but not mid fossa.  The docs. at Mayo & Barrows said Bob would lose his hearing with surgery.  We liked the doc. at Mayo, but ruled him out as he's done around 300 AN surgeries in his years of practice, but has not done any for quite a while.  I felt the doc. at Barrows was a bit flip & condescending.  His suggestion was for Bob to W & W & be ready to do CK if/when the time comes to act (he does surgery & CK).  When Bob asked why Cyber over Gamma, he said it didn't really make any difference, that the outcome would be the same (he actually used an analogy of a Ford & a Lexus going to the same location -- the mode of transportation didn't matter as long as you got there).  His other reason was, "I don't think I'd want screws put in my head if I didn't have to."  When Bob asked if he would answer the questions we'd printed, he did answer them, but cautioned us that most of the people on the internet (this site) were usually the ones who didn't work & didn't have anything better to do.....  Even though his bedside manner wasn't what we would like, Bob hasn't ruled him out, & the other part of his team would be Dr. Spetzler which is a big plus.  Dr. Friedman, at HEI, did a phone consult with us & said if/when the time comes to act, he would recommend surgery (retrosigmoid) & contrary to what the other docs. said, he believes there's a 50% chance he could save some of Bob's hearing in the AN ear.  He thought a month off work would be a realistic expectation if Bob were to have surgery.  He would NOT recommend CK & said they don't offer it at HEI because it does not have a proven track record, & in fact, they feel studies are suggesting it's not an effective treatment for Acoustic Neuromas...  He also said Bob would lose his hearing with CK, & the danger with W & W for too long, is Bob could lose hearing that might be salvageable.  Up until talking to Dr. Friedman, who Bob really liked & felt gave clear answers, Bob was leaning towards CK...  Unfortunately, we're now more confused than before....  Bob now wonders if he should wait 6 months instead of 3 for his next MRI.  He wonders how long is too long to W & W???  HEI is such a highly acclaimed medical facility & they don't do CK -- it's hard to disregard that.  Due to Bob's Dad's hearing loss, & our son having a hearing loss to high frequencies, we also have the lingering concern that this could be NF2 (none of the doctors think this is a possibility).  Maybe talking to Dr. Chang will help to clear things up -- but maybe we'll just become more confused.  In the meantime, along with his hearing loss & feeling so tired, Bob's begun to have sharp, but brief, stabbing pains on the AN side of his head.  Dr. Friedman doesn't think these are related to the AN -- what is it then, stress?  Oh boy -- this is quite the roller coaster!  We're so thankful for our faith & our praying friends!  By the way, has anyone ever had their AN disappear -- we do believe in miracles :)               

mindyandy

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2011, 03:27:43 pm »
Judy- I can see you both had done some homework. That is excellent. I do know how you feel being cnofused. I believe we have all been there and some of us are still there. Keep doing your homework. Nobody can make Bob's choice except Bob. I do hope he takes his time and makes a choice that he is comfortable with. I do agree Dr. Friedman is wonderful to talk to.
Please keep us informed on how Bob is doing. This is a wonderful forum.
14mm dx 9/07. CK done Seattle  1 year MRI showed some shrinkage. 4 year MRI 2mm growth nothing conclusive. Trigminal nerve involvment Retrosigmoid Friedmand/Schwartz HEI March 7,2012

CHD63

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2011, 07:51:03 pm »
Judy .....

As Mindy said so well, only Bob can really make this decision after relaxing a bit after all of the research/information gathering you both have done.  Sometimes you just need to step back, take a deep breath, and then all of it will become crystal clear to Bob and he will be at peace with his decision.  He will know in his gut (if you will) what is logical and makes the most sense to him.

Many thoughts and prayers.

Clarice
Right MVD for trigeminal neuralgia, 1994, Pittsburgh, PA
Left retrosigmoid 2.6 cm AN removal, February, 2008, Duke U
Tumor regrew to 1.3 cm in February, 2011
Translab AN removal, May, 2011 at HEI, Friedman & Schwartz
Oticon Ponto Pro abutment implant at same time; processor added August, 2011

Richard_T

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 04:44:44 pm »
Judy,

I am as new to this process as you and Bob.  I had a consult with Dr. Slattery with HEI.  My wife and I think highly of him as well.  Being from the same organization, it is not surprising that Slattery had the same position as Dr. Friedman with respect to GK with CK.  However, he did indicate that he would/could do CK, if I wanted that over GK.
1.9 cm x 1.6 cm x 1.8 cm AN diag. 12/09/11
CK at Stanford 1/20/12

leapyrtwins

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 05:04:22 pm »
As others have already said, only Bob can make this decision. 

Although it's wonderful that others want to help him, ultimately it's something that he needs to decide on his own.

Most of us "knew" when we'd made the choice that was best for us and I have the feeling that Bob will too.

My neurotologist flat out refused to make my treatment decision for me; he told me it was no one's choice by my own.  At first this was very unsettling for me - and I was a little ticked off that he wasn't giving me the easy way out  ;D  But in time, I came to see that he was absolutely right.  I followed my head, my heart, and my "gut" and made the choice that I felt was best for me.  That was almost 5 years ago and I've never second-guessed my decision.

Jan
Retrosig 5/31/07 Drs. Battista & Kazan (Hinsdale, Illinois)
Left AN 3.0 cm (1.5 cm @ diagnosis 6 wks prior) SSD. BAHA implant 3/4/08 (Dr. Battista) Divino 6/4/08  BP100 4/2010 BAHA 5 8/2015

I don't actually "make" trouble..just kind of attract it, fine tune it, and apply it in new and exciting ways

schmidtkat

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 10:15:19 pm »
Bob and Judy,
Thoughts and prayers go out to you both as you search for what feels like the right decision. The information provided, while needed and is to the best of each expert's ability, can be overwhelming. Glad to read that prayer is a comfort to you. It certainly has been for me. While I still wonder the path to take on many things I have faith that the one who leads me knows the way. I just have to be patient and F.R.O.G (Fully Rely on God). Coming to a decision on the treatment option can be a milestone in the healing process. Ihope that it will be for the two of you. Doing the research as you are will give you the information needed, and as others have said...no one else can make that choice for Bob. It appears that each expert is telling you time is on Bob's side. Take that time to arrive at a decision which gives Bob the greatest confidence going into the proceedure. That combination of faith and confidence should equip Bob to come through this health challenge with positive results.
I hope and pray for all the best ~ Kathy

Tumbleweed

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 09:22:41 pm »
Hi, Judy:

I commend you for doing your homework. That's arguably the most important factor in having a positive outcome from treatment.

Without knowing the dimensions of Bob's tumor, it's difficult to offer a completely valid perspective. But, FWIW:

HEI has a reputation for being a bit anti-radiation and pro-surgery, so I'm not surprised by what they told you. This is not to disparage HEI; they are an outstanding facility (perhaps the best, in terms of experience) for surgical resection of ANs. But since they don't offer CK and have no experience with it, it makes more sense to hear from the horse's mouth -- Dr. Chang, who is possibly the world's leading expert in CK -- an informed opinion about that form of treatment vis-a-vis your husband's AN. As Dr. Chang is a neurosurgeon, he will theoretically be unbiased when he tells you whether he thinks CK or resection is best for your husband.

Having said all that, I am quite puzzled that Dr. Friedman maintains that data suggests CK is not an effective treatment for ANs. I for one am living proof to the contrary, and you'll find many other people on this forum who have had outstanding results from CK.

If Dr. Chang recommends CK, Bob will still be left with the challenge of trusting his gut as to which doctor's lead to follow. But one way to clarify the situation is to ask each doctor for the odds, in percentage terms, of their recommended treatment causing Bob facial paralysis (and if it's likely to be permanent or temporary), hearing loss or deafness, chronic headaches, worsening dizziness or CSF leakage (the latter is only likely with surgical resection and is most likely to be a problem if Bob were to have translab-approach surgery). Once he knows the odds, he can choose which treatment he wants, with eyes wide open.

The reason why Bob is a candidate for retrosigmoid but not middle-fossa approach is likely because his AN is extending too far into the CPA (cerebellopontine angle) to effectively reach it via the latter approach. I do agree that a followup MRI only three months after the last one is unnecessary, as it would likely look exactly the same as the most current one taken. That's because ANs only grow on average 1 or 2 mm per year and MRIs have about a 2mm inherent error. You typically have to wait at least several months to see any change in an untreated tumor. The only reason to get one sooner than six months is if Bob's AN is approaching 3 cm in size -- the approximate cutoff for eligibility for radiation treatments -- and he wants to preserve that treatment option by not waiting until it exceeds that size. (It's a bit more complicated than that -- tumor volume is more of a determining factor than the dimension along any one axis, but 3 cm is an important number to watch.)

NF2 is highly unlikely in Bob's case. His doctors would have noticed any AN on the opposite side from his existing one, as MRIs scan the entire brain. Since they didn't see one on the opposing side, Bob can rest assured he does not have NF2.

A number of forumites have mentioned having brief stabbing pains on their AN side (myself included, although this was post-treatment) . It is pretty universally disregarded by doctors as having anything to do with ANs, but it is curious how many people have experienced this anyway.

I think once you talk with Dr. Chang, the picture will become clearer for you both. (He is my doctor, btw.)

Best wishes,
TW

L. AN 18x12x9 mm @ diagnosis, 11/07
21x13x11 mm @ CK treatment 7/11/08 (Drs. Chang & Gibbs, Stanford)
21x15x13 mm in 12/08 (5 months post-CK), widespread necrosis, swelling
12x9x6 mm, Nov. 2017; shrank ~78% since treatment!
W&W on stable 6mm hypoglossal tumor found 12/08

james e

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 11:24:33 am »
Dr Friedman told me two years ago that there was no long-term data about the safety of using radiation on ANs. I brought up that point on this forum and a mini fire-fight broke out.

I have no idea what the truth is and I'm sure both types of doctors can argue their side pretty well. Remember this... medicine is a business, and profit is the queen. I am a surgeon and I want to operate, or I am a radiologist and I want to put you in my machine...I can't make any money unless you are on my table. This is the real reason that YOU have to decide how you will be treated.

I am not telling you that doctors are bad or indifferent. There are lots of recovered patients on this site that believe they got the right treatment and they would repeat their treatment again if they had to do it all over again.

James

leapyrtwins

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 02:19:53 pm »
HEI has a reputation for being a bit anti-radiation and pro-surgery, so I'm not surprised by what they told you. This is not to disparage HEI; they are an outstanding facility (perhaps the best, in terms of experience) for surgical resection of ANs. But since they don't offer CK and have no experience with it, it makes more sense to hear from the horse's mouth -- Dr. Chang, who is possibly the world's leading expert in CK -- an informed opinion about that form of treatment vis-a-vis your husband's AN. As Dr. Chang is a neurosurgeon, he will theoretically be unbiased when he tells you whether he thinks CK or resection is best for your husband.

Ditto what Tumbleweed said.

As I mentioned in my previous post, my neurotologist does both radiation and surgery so I was lucky to have someone who didn't have a bias either way.

Jan
Retrosig 5/31/07 Drs. Battista & Kazan (Hinsdale, Illinois)
Left AN 3.0 cm (1.5 cm @ diagnosis 6 wks prior) SSD. BAHA implant 3/4/08 (Dr. Battista) Divino 6/4/08  BP100 4/2010 BAHA 5 8/2015

I don't actually "make" trouble..just kind of attract it, fine tune it, and apply it in new and exciting ways

ppearl214

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 05:34:01 am »
Double-ditto what TW has said. It is public knowledge regarding HEI's stance on radiation treatment on AN's (especially Dr. Friedman's as he has been very vocal about it) and agree that they certainly know their stuff when it comes to surgical treatment option of AN's.

In line with what Jan wrote, I was also blessed to have a NS that is skilled/trained in both surgery and radiation. My NS, to this day, surgically removes AN's but in my meetings with her, told me that she didn't want to "cut" and to go have radiation done.  She most certainly earned my respect that day... a surgeon that didn't want to operate and told me to go a different direction, all in hopes of the best treatment and outcome for her patient and my AN particular journey. Go figure.  She now sees me, almost 6 years post-treatment and all she can do is smile as she knows she pointed me, in her opinion, in the best direction for my wellness... and she was right.

Phyl

HEI has a reputation for being a bit anti-radiation and pro-surgery, so I'm not surprised by what they told you. This is not to disparage HEI; they are an outstanding facility (perhaps the best, in terms of experience) for surgical resection of ANs. But since they don't offer CK and have no experience with it, it makes more sense to hear from the horse's mouth -- Dr. Chang, who is possibly the world's leading expert in CK -- an informed opinion about that form of treatment vis-a-vis your husband's AN. As Dr. Chang is a neurosurgeon, he will theoretically be unbiased when he tells you whether he thinks CK or resection is best for your husband.

Ditto what Tumbleweed said.

As I mentioned in my previous post, my neurotologist does both radiation and surgery so I was lucky to have someone who didn't have a bias either way.

Jan
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

AZ JB

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2012, 12:50:52 pm »
Thanks to all of you for your replies to Judy's post.  If you haven't noticed, she's the one doing most of the research on this, but she's always showing me your answers & posts from other people, so I appreciate all the support you've given us & information we've been able to get from this site.  I seem to be having more symptoms lately -- sharp pains in my head, very tired, & I have this foggy feeling a lot of the time.  Any suggestions on how to handle these symptoms?  On another note, a couple posts talked about the person opting for surgery & during surgery, they found the tumor to be quite a bit bigger than the MRI showed.  Does this mean MRIs can be that off?  Tumbleweed, if you read this post, we sent you a personal message a few days ago with a couple questions about Dr. Chang & CK (at least I think we did, we're still learning how to navigate around in this forum).  If you didn't get it, would you email me to let me know?

Thank you again for the support & help you give to us newcomers!

Bob   

leapyrtwins

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 07:11:38 pm »
On another note, a couple posts talked about the person opting for surgery & during surgery, they found the tumor to be quite a bit bigger than the MRI showed.  Does this mean MRIs can be that off?

I'm one who had a big difference in tumor size between my diagnostic MRI and my surgery (approximately 6 weeks later).  My tumor went from 1.5 cms to almost 3 cms. 

Measurements on MRIs can be "off", but usually not that much.  In my case, I was told I had growth - although no one could say why it happened that fast.  It's not the norm.

Jan   
Retrosig 5/31/07 Drs. Battista & Kazan (Hinsdale, Illinois)
Left AN 3.0 cm (1.5 cm @ diagnosis 6 wks prior) SSD. BAHA implant 3/4/08 (Dr. Battista) Divino 6/4/08  BP100 4/2010 BAHA 5 8/2015

I don't actually "make" trouble..just kind of attract it, fine tune it, and apply it in new and exciting ways

mk

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 08:04:29 pm »
Sometimes discrepancies between measurements can be due to some extent to the measurement technique and the way different doctors interpret the measurements:
Diagnostic MRIs sometimes do not focus in a particular area, so they don't take many slices. So the size may be underreported. Then, some doctors report just the diameter of the spherical section of the tumor, whereas others report the maximum dimension (i.e. taking into account the portion going into the internal auditory canal.
In my case, the initial radiology report, reported the maximum dimension of my AN as 2.4 cm. However, I realized afterwards that that initial scan had very few slices. In reality the dimension was more like 2.8 cm. One of the doctors though, who measured it including the IAC portion told me that it was 3.4 cm. This is already a huge difference in the reported sizes for the same tumor. Upon surgical removal, the measurement is of course much more accurate. Note that even small differences in the actual diameter, result in huge differences in the volume, thus the statement that we sometimes hear that the tumor has doubled in size, refers to the volume (not in Jan's case, as we know that in her case it referred to the actual diameter).

Marianna
GK on April 23rd 2008 for 2.9 cm AN at Toronto Western Hospital. Subsequent MRIs showed darkening initially, then growth. Retrosigmoid surgery on April 26th, 2011 with Drs. Akagami and Westerberg at Vancouver General Hospital. Graduallly lost hearing after GK and now SSD but no other issues.

alabamajane

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 10:32:49 am »
Just my two cents worth here,, but this is one time that just size does not matter........from what I learned before surgery, symptoms and location of the tumor are just as important if not more so than the size being reported to you. As said, MRIs and the radiologists reports vary immensely at times. Each machine is different (different bore size, different magnet size) and each MRI is performed differently (in "swipes" taken, position you are laying in)  and each radiologist or Dr for that matter will read/measure them differently.. thus I believe and I am NOT dr or medical professional, the vast differences at times in "size reports".. so don't obsess or focus just on what size it is at any given time.

You need to ask where is it located, IAC or CPA and most importantly if it is close to or pressing on the brain stem as mine eventually was causing many problems.. this should help determine how critical treatment is or if w&w is appropriate. And several different Dr opinions will help you decide I believe. I know personally I relied too much on one Dr's opinion in the beginning and chose w&w for three yrs going mostly on the size he said it was (1 cm) and turned out to be 2.8cm at surgery. Even when Dr Slattery at HEI looked at MRI this Dr had taken and referred to,, Dr Slattery said it was 2.5cm,, BIG difference if you are going on size alone for decision making process.. so,, just some "food for thought" .. I know it is a tough decision, one of the toughest you or Bob rather, will ever have to make! But to your last question,, I have never heard on this forum or elsewhere, that someone's AN just disappeared or dissolved,, unless maybe there never was one to begin with.. although as you say,, miracles DO happen.. I hope for one for you,, but continue with research too... :)  Jane
translab Oct 27, 2011
facial nerve graft Oct 31,2011, eyelid weight removed Oct 2013, eye closes well

BAHA surgery Oct. 2014, activated Dec. 26

Tumbleweed

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Re: So confused....
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 11:41:36 am »
Tumbleweed, if you read this post, we sent you a personal message a few days ago with a couple questions about Dr. Chang & CK (at least I think we did, we're still learning how to navigate around in this forum).  If you didn't get it, would you email me to let me know?
Bob   

Sorry, Bob, I was on vacation (with no access to the Internet) for the past week and just got home last night. Please check your messages for my reply.

Best wishes,
TW
L. AN 18x12x9 mm @ diagnosis, 11/07
21x13x11 mm @ CK treatment 7/11/08 (Drs. Chang & Gibbs, Stanford)
21x15x13 mm in 12/08 (5 months post-CK), widespread necrosis, swelling
12x9x6 mm, Nov. 2017; shrank ~78% since treatment!
W&W on stable 6mm hypoglossal tumor found 12/08