Author Topic: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!  (Read 5287 times)

neuroma_racer

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cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!
« on: July 19, 2012, 05:59:10 pm »
just when i though all was in order. . .
    in-person MD visits, MRI and CT and mask creation on july 31st
    five dose regimen cyberknife scheduled for august 6th through 9th
    beachhouse rented and paid for for the entire week (whole family coming to charleston, S.C.)
feeling good about modality, duration, and location for my hypo-fractionated cyberknife treatment

then a medical school buddy, (who is a general-purpose oncologist) gets back to me today, (literally 30" after paying for the beach house rental)
   he had been kind enough to take my case, and MRI, and his partner who is a radiation oncologist, who presented my case before their multidisciplinary tumor panel. this process was initiated a few weeks ago, while i was still torn cyber vs gamma, and how many treatments to seek if i CHOSE cyber. after having finally DECIDED 5-dose cyber, i had really thought i ought just have him/them take me off the list for discussion.
   along with the MRI, i sent both a short, and a long version, of the play-by-play of my "SCHWANNoma SONG", and at the end i pointed out that i had already essentially decided on five-dose cyber. i had told my friend i had decided, and was comfortable, but he wanted to proceed, so i guessed (wrongly?) it wouldn't hurt. it was even free.
   so while waiting to hear back, i was really expecting a noncommittal "that sounds like a fine option, that you'v chosen there" [my 5 dose cyber], instead, they said "go for gamma!!" - reason being it is more accurate.

   with gamma, the treatment plan is directly mapped onto the tumor, on an MRI
   with cyber, they essentially COPY the tumor image from an MRI to a CT, and the treatment plan is mapped on the CT, (which is now a second-generation image of the tumor) potentially introducing room for error/decreasing accuracy.

   up till a week or so ago, i was under the impression that gamma was slightly more accurate/precise, because the frame is SCREWED to ones SKULL, and since there si only one dose, no chance for INTER-dose variability.
   a week ago, i heard back from another radiation oncologist who tends to be pretty "forum-friendly" in answering patients with acoustic neuromas, interestingly he uses (has used both cyber and gamma) and said he thinks cyber is more accurate - so this helped make my decision, as above. he wrote :
     Gamma Knife is emphatically NOT more accurate. I don't know why they tell people that. The MECHANICAL accuracy of the Gamma Knife is 0.3 mm. But in addition, there is frame torsion, the possibility that screws will not be tightened sufficiently, the accuracy of the automatic positioning system, and the inherent inaccuracy of MRI (used for targeting for Gamma Knife) versus CT (used for targeting for CyberKnife). The overall accuracy is 1-2 mm, and in better centers is probably closer to 1 mm.
     The verifiable accuracy of the CyberKnife in this situation is o.5 mm, and that is overall accuracy. Therefore, if there is a difference, it favors Cyberknife.
     I have done thousands of cases with both machines, and am very familiar with the characteristics of each. But I think that is unimportant. What is more important is the soil in contouring and the dose selection. Either center should be able to do this competently, and unless they are just not even trying to get it right either should be fine.
     The real question is whether fractionation spares normal tissues in this situation, and that is unknown. We thought that fractionation was better at preserving hearing, but I am no longer certain. It certainly does not hurt.


   i was really kinda surprised to hear what i heard from the panel, as i don't really think either treatment is "wrong", i just want to choose what i think will be best for me, in preparation for living with the potential sequelae of the treatment down the road (if any), and being to handle the "buyer's remorse", should there be any.

   i really felt good, settled, and at peace with my decision on 5 dose cyberknife, - till a few hours ago
i felt and still feel good about the decision to operate, 2 years ago, KNOWING WHAT WE KNEW THEN. so no regrets.
had we known then what we know now, (that it is a facial nerve and not an acoustic). . . i'd have probably nuked away 2 years ago.

thoughts?
thanks,
jesse
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 05:48:11 pm by neuroma_racer »
mild hearing loss - 12/'09
left 4x5x7mm, intracannicular schwanomma
MIDDLE FOSSA surgery 4/'10, Dr John McElveen, et.al.
was actually a FACIAL NERVE NEUROMA
hearing worsened 4/'12 - Tumor quadrupled to 9x9x15mm
cyberknife 8/'12
1.5yr MRI shows shrinkage % 85% necrosis
LEFT hearing & tinnitus SUCK

sunfish

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for now???
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 06:19:40 pm »
Sounds like you decided to go with Roper's Cyberknife, then?  I'm sorry you're agonizing over your decision.  I doubt I have anything intelligent to add, with regard to accuracy.  Why are they going with five sessions, vs. three?  Could have to do with location, etc.?

I do like Dr. Worthington and his team.  My only teeny tiny regret was whether I should have gone with a team with more AN experience.  However, two and a half years later, I've had pretty much good results.  I have my 2.5 year MRI in a couple months.  It's been a year since the last one.

Where's your tumor located?  Mine was right up against the brain stem, so accuracy was important!
Rt. side 14mm x 11mm near brain stem
Severe higher frequency hearing loss
I use a hearing aid (Dot 20 by Resound)
Balance issues improving!!!!
Cyberknife March17, 2010
Roper Hospital Cancer Center, Charleston, SC

neuroma_racer

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for now???
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 06:35:07 pm »
Sounds like you decided to go with Roper's Cyberknife, then?  I'm sorry you're agonizing over your decision.  I doubt I have anything intelligent to add, with regard to accuracy.  Why are they going with five sessions, vs. three?  Could have to do with location, etc.?

I do like Dr. Worthington and his team.  My only teeny tiny regret was whether I should have gone with a team with more AN experience.  However, two and a half years later, I've had pretty much good results.  I have my 2.5 year MRI in a couple months.  It's been a year since the last one.

Where's your tumor located?  Mine was right up against the brain stem, so accuracy was important!

yes, was very settled on roper for the last week.
laurie lybrand has been very nice and accommodating regarding dates/times/etc.
dr clay, i'll be meeting on the 31st, as well.

mine is in the internal auditory canal, and just barely starting to bulge out.
it is all of ONE MILLIMETER, from my cochlea,

dr worthington felt five doses would be better
he consulted some folks at georgetown, which made me feel better
   i remember what your family member said about $/# doses.
i am fine with five.

i emailed laurie, who forwarded it to him, about my accuracy questions, and hope to hear back soon.
i don't know that i'd change course,
just want to feel like i did BEFORE the panel said "gamma"

got a beach house 2 blocks off the beach, in wild dunces on the isle of palms, in charleston.
i anticipate a nice week (weather permitting)

thanks,
jesse
mild hearing loss - 12/'09
left 4x5x7mm, intracannicular schwanomma
MIDDLE FOSSA surgery 4/'10, Dr John McElveen, et.al.
was actually a FACIAL NERVE NEUROMA
hearing worsened 4/'12 - Tumor quadrupled to 9x9x15mm
cyberknife 8/'12
1.5yr MRI shows shrinkage % 85% necrosis
LEFT hearing & tinnitus SUCK

sunfish

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for now???
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2012, 07:25:59 am »
Sounds like more fractionation would be a good thing, with the tumor being that close to the cochlea.  Thus, the five fractions idea. 

Just me, but I'd be more inclined to go with something that breaks that radiation dose down into parts (CK), rather than one big, whopping dose (GK). 

Don't know if you're aware, but Dr. Worthington has LOTS of experience with GK, so he's probably very knowledgeable regarding this particular question.
Rt. side 14mm x 11mm near brain stem
Severe higher frequency hearing loss
I use a hearing aid (Dot 20 by Resound)
Balance issues improving!!!!
Cyberknife March17, 2010
Roper Hospital Cancer Center, Charleston, SC

chloes mema

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for now???
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2012, 02:59:05 pm »
   with gamma, the treatment plan is directly mapped onto the tumor, on an MRI
   with cyber, they essentially COPY the tumor image from an MRI to a CT, and the treatment plan is mapped on the CT, (which is now a second-generation image of the tumor) potentially introducing room for error/decreasing accuracy.

thoughts?
thanks,
jesse

Interesting.  I thought CK had a slightly more accurate rate than GK.  Also, my understanding of CK, at least from my doctors, was that during the CK procedure the "machine" was constantly taking images of the tumor so if you moved or had to stop the CK for any reason the "machine" could pick up right where it left off.

Karen
Diagnosed October 2011
Oct '11-9 X 6 mm left ear
Mar '12 - 1.25cm
Tinnitus, imbalance, and mild dizziness (ditsy)
My AN = Annoying Nuisance
Jan'12 W&W
May'12 CK completed
Oct'12 hemifacial spasms
Dec'19 It's back

neuroma_racer

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 05:47:28 pm »
drove to charleston ~3 hours, after a monday evening shift in the e.r.
got my MRI, and CT on tuesday,
met dr clay my radiation oncologist, and dr worthington (neurosurgeon (who has done lots of cases on both gamma AND cyberknives)), and dr zimmerman the medical physicist,, and laurie lybrand the cyberknife coordinator.
everyone was great and super helpful super nice.
.
had to go back thursday for more treatment planning scans to get finer cuts on the ct images, and add some other dimension to the MRI,
i didn't mond the extra trip, and appreciated dr worthing's desire for more info/scans to get more accurate treatment mapping.
.
all is in place
2 more e.r. shifts
drive to charleston with the family sunday
get radiated on the inside monday through friday from the cyberknife,
get radiated on the outside form the sun/neach rest of the day.
.
will definitely be glad to have this all behind me, and pray for there not to be a chapter three,
i feel very good about the plan that is in place
.
aces,
jesse
mild hearing loss - 12/'09
left 4x5x7mm, intracannicular schwanomma
MIDDLE FOSSA surgery 4/'10, Dr John McElveen, et.al.
was actually a FACIAL NERVE NEUROMA
hearing worsened 4/'12 - Tumor quadrupled to 9x9x15mm
cyberknife 8/'12
1.5yr MRI shows shrinkage % 85% necrosis
LEFT hearing & tinnitus SUCK

JWW

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 07:40:25 pm »
Jesse, you said: "get radiated on the outside from the sun/beach rest of the day".

I was instructed to stay out of the sun for awhile and wear a hat when outside.
Also, not to use a hot hair dryer or take hot water baths or showers.....luke warm.

Good luck,

JW

neuroma_racer

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 12:43:30 am »
Jesse, you said: "get radiated on the outside from the sun/beach rest of the day".

I was instructed to stay out of the sun for awhile and wear a hat when outside.
Also, not to use a hot hair dryer or take hot water baths or showers.....luke warm.

Good luck,

JW

Wow thanks
I'll have to double check that one

I asked if there were any particular do's or dont's regarding either diet or activity
While under treatment
They said no to both

Not that I am SEEKING a tan,
Just to play in/on beach with the kids

Will ask again Monday

Thanks
Jesse
mild hearing loss - 12/'09
left 4x5x7mm, intracannicular schwanomma
MIDDLE FOSSA surgery 4/'10, Dr John McElveen, et.al.
was actually a FACIAL NERVE NEUROMA
hearing worsened 4/'12 - Tumor quadrupled to 9x9x15mm
cyberknife 8/'12
1.5yr MRI shows shrinkage % 85% necrosis
LEFT hearing & tinnitus SUCK

neuroma_racer

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 04:00:46 pm »
3/5 done with cyberknife
an hour of two of mild-medium dizziness, and nausea, and fatigue.
usually a couple hours after conclusion of treatments (which are about 45" long)

worst on monday, then less and equal today/yesterday.
i just came off of about 4 night shifts sunday owning,
so some (?most?) of it may be just my circadian flip flop from reverting from nights to days.
mild hearing loss - 12/'09
left 4x5x7mm, intracannicular schwanomma
MIDDLE FOSSA surgery 4/'10, Dr John McElveen, et.al.
was actually a FACIAL NERVE NEUROMA
hearing worsened 4/'12 - Tumor quadrupled to 9x9x15mm
cyberknife 8/'12
1.5yr MRI shows shrinkage % 85% necrosis
LEFT hearing & tinnitus SUCK

chloes mema

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 09:08:55 am »
JW

Interesting that they told you no sun, warm showers etc.  I also asked my doctors and they said do whatever you want, no restrictions so I guess it's each individuals doctor's call.  I find it interesting when I question my doctors about what they're doing vs what I've read on the forum that other peoples' doctors are doing.

As a side note, I love sitting in a dry sauna but my gut instincts since my diagnosis has told me to stay out.  Wonder if the sauna would also be on your doctor's list of no-nos.

Karen
Diagnosed October 2011
Oct '11-9 X 6 mm left ear
Mar '12 - 1.25cm
Tinnitus, imbalance, and mild dizziness (ditsy)
My AN = Annoying Nuisance
Jan'12 W&W
May'12 CK completed
Oct'12 hemifacial spasms
Dec'19 It's back

neuroma_racer

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Re: cyberkinfe date set, . . . for GOOD!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 09:26:50 am »
I asked em again
And they said do whatcha want
No prohibition on sun/uv (other than common sense and sunblock)
mild hearing loss - 12/'09
left 4x5x7mm, intracannicular schwanomma
MIDDLE FOSSA surgery 4/'10, Dr John McElveen, et.al.
was actually a FACIAL NERVE NEUROMA
hearing worsened 4/'12 - Tumor quadrupled to 9x9x15mm
cyberknife 8/'12
1.5yr MRI shows shrinkage % 85% necrosis
LEFT hearing & tinnitus SUCK