Author Topic: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed  (Read 11972 times)

JaneMD

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Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« on: September 28, 2015, 03:21:33 pm »
Hi, everyone.  My husband was diagnosed 9 years ago with a 2 mm AN that has progressed over time to a  6mm by 5 mm by 14 mm tumor with a small extension beyond the IAC in to the CP.  My H has absolutely no symptoms, and has excellent hearing.  We have only decided to do surgery now because the tumor is pressing against the brain stem, and because it remains small-ish now.  We are not interested in radiosurgery, although it seems to be a wonderful option for others.   

After much research over the 9 years while we were watch-and-wait, we decided to go with Friedman/Giannotta at USC Keck.  We have followed Dr. Friedman's career, and were very impressed by both his qualifications and the team he put together at Keck.  After making the decision to move forward, we spoke with Dr. Friedman, who was very confident about his ability to successfully remove the entire tumor, with the best chance of preserving hearing that anyone could provide, and without damaging the facial nerve.  We were very surprised that Drs. Friedman and Giannotta advised the retrosigmoid approach, but Dr. Friedman was clear that his protocol dictated retrosigmoid for tumors of my husband's size and placement, and that he would not risk the facial tumor for my husband's case, in which the tumor has escaped the canal.  Dr. F explained that to work on the portion of the tumor outside the canal, the retrosigmoid approach would give him the best visualization, and thus the best chance of not damaging the facial nerve.  Dr. Friedman indicated that he and Dr. G would be "in and out in three hours," which was particularly intriguing to us, as my husband has some cardiac issues that make surgery time one factor to consider, although he's still an excellent surgical candidate.  We were pretty pumped up after speaking with Dr. F, who was just the kind of confident that you want in someone mucking about in your brain, and recently scheduled the surgery for 11/3.  In the time since then, we have been well-coordinated with the patient coordinator, who has been wonderful.  We have flights, we have hotels, we have babysitters, we are good to go. 

But then, after a meeting at the local chapter of the Acoustic Neuroma Society, though, we became particularly concerned about the risk of headaches after the retrosigmoid approach.  We knew that it was a risk, but speaking to folks who experienced them was moving.  We called Keck, and although Dr. Gionnotta is out of town, Dr. G's physician assistant spoke with us, and assured us that headaches were not a symptom that Dr. G's patients experience, but there wasn't much to go on, other than her word on that.  That feels like a huge risk to take.  On the other hand, we are confident that Dr. F and Dr. G are among the very best surgical teams in the US, and there is no reason to expect any complications.

Because we are concerned, we followed up with House Ear Clinic, and spoke with Dr. Brackmann and Dr. Schwartz.  Both recommended the middle fossa approach.  Dr. Schwartz explained that in my husband's case, the facial nerve was "in front of the tumor, not on top of the tumor," and that made the risk of damaging the facial nerve less of a concern. Dr. Schwartz was confident that the middle fossa approach was the best one, and that it would also provide the best opportunity to remove the entire tumor, without damaging the facial nerve, and with the best chance of preserving hearing.  Dr. Schwartz indicated that he thought five hours sounded like a reasonable amount of time for my husband's surgery, but noted that he did not have a cardiac unit with the depth of experience that Keck would have.  That was a mild concern, but not overwhelming.  I particularly liked Dr. Schwartz, because he got in the weeds a little bit in discussing my husband's images and individual tumor placement, but that's probably not a reason to choose a surgeon.  He was also honest with us that Dr. Brackmann is very senior, but very capable.  I appreciated his addressing that issue with us. 

We asked each doctor why the other was recommending a different surgical approach, and neither had any idea.  The doctors were absolutely respectful of each other, but each remained convinced that their approach was the appropriate one.  Dr. Friedman said, "of course House wants to do middle fossa -- they always recommend middle fossa."  Dr. Schwartz was surprised that Dr. Friedman would recommend retrosigmoid, and noted that he would have performed middle fossa on this sized/placed tumor when he was at House a short time ago.  Each doctor noted that we had a difficult decision to make, which was both comforting, and totally unhelpful. 

We are absolutely stumped and looking for any ideas or thoughts the AN community might have on how to re-evaluate our decision.  We were all set to go, and now we are second guessing ourselves, and could use any insight anyone might offer.  We are going to have to make a decision within a week, it seems.  Thanks in advance for any comments! 


rupert

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 04:48:38 pm »
You will find that doctors are going to recommend the procedure that they are most comfortable with and feel the most capable of.  Middle Fossa is usually reserved for tumors  that are small as certain views may be limited by that approach.  Middle Fossa has a higher chance of saving hearing but in all reality not by much. If you ask 10 different doctors you're going to get lots of varied answers as to treatment. None better then others,  just different ways of treatment the doctors are most comfortable with.  That's a good thing really.  If I may ask, why would you not look at some of the radiosurgery options?  Looks like your husband would be a candidate.

jaylogs

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2015, 08:08:45 pm »
Hi Jane, and welcome to Pre-op land.  So you will find that each doctor will do what he or she is most comfortable in doing if they have a choice of methods.  I do think Brackmann/Schwartz favor Middle Fossa more so than any other, in fact they did that on me 6 years ago.  I experienced symptoms before surgery.  As far as predicting whether or not you'll have headaches, while I am not a doctor I would think it would be hard to tell for sure until the outcome of the surgery.  There are just so many little factors to take into account.  I get more headaches now than I did before surgery. There are subtle changes in me that has stayed on since the surgery.  We always say each experience is unique on this forum and that is very true.  So the question comes down to who you want to do your surgery...You have pro's and cons for each so there's no clear winner.  I guess it all comes down to what your gut tells you, which feels better.  If you need to put it on a dart board and throw a dart blindfolded and choose that way, maybe that's what you need to do.  Nobody can tell you for absolute certainty on what you need to do, so I wish you good luck and just know that whatever decision you will make will be indeed be a good one! Let us know how it goes!
Jay
8.1mm x 7.8mm x 8.2mm AN, Left Ear, Middle Fossa surgery performed on 12/9/09 at House by Drs. Brackmann/Schwartz. Some hearing left, but got BAHA 2/25/11 (Ponto Pro) To see how I did through my Middle Fossa surgery, click here: http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/jaylogston

Steve2014

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 08:18:12 pm »
For what it's worth, I recently had retro at Keck. 1.6cm, Retained my hearing (which was very good pre surgery) only symptom was tinnitus,  and am having a good recovery. Minor headaches sometimes when I wake up but I think that's from the way I am sleeping. I was told by Dr F that headaches have not really been an issue with them. If you were to go somewhere less experienced I would worry about them. Personally, I think you are deciding between 2 of the absolute BEST teams possible so whatever you decide will be correct. I'm a bit biased but I had an excellent outcome at Keck.
Diagnosed May 2014 at age 56, 1.5cm right side, definite growth shown at 6 month and 1 year MRI May 2015. Surgery on Aug 4, 2015 at USC with Dr's Friedman and Giannatta, retained hearing!

CHD63

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2015, 06:09:39 am »
Hi JaneMD .....

Yours is a tough decision to make because both teams make sense and both teams are excellent.  As Jay says this is a very personal decision that only your husband can really make.  You both need to trust your inner feelings at this point.

I will say that four years ago, Drs. Friedman and Schwartz did my surgery when Dr. Friedman was still at House/St. Vincent's.  In my case it was my second AN surgery (on the same side from regrowth).  My first surgery (done at Duke) was via retrosigmoid approach three years earlier.  Friedman/Schwartz did translab approach on the second surgery.  Mid fossa was not an option for me.

21 years ago I had retrosigmoid approach surgery (on the opposite side) for trigeminal neuralgia from nerve compression at the brainstem.  I had significant headaches for about two weeks following that surgery (most likely from swelling), but after that time no further headaches, except for very infrequent mild "run of the mill" headaches.  After my first AN surgery via retrosigmoid approach, I had double vision for a couple of weeks and mild headaches for the same length of time.  Again, only infrequent mild "run of the mill" headaches after about two weeks.  Following the translab surgery, I had a mild headache for about a week.  After that, back to the infrequent "run of the mill" ones.  In other words, no matter the approach, he will probably have a headache for the first few days due to hopefully only mild swelling (which is most often controlled via steroids post-op).

Bottom line ..... I think headaches following retrosigmoid are greatly minimized if you choose highly experienced teams (like Friedman/Gianotta).

For what it is worth, I had a hard decision to make when Dr. Friedman left House for USC ..... whether to keep my contact/records at House with Dr. Schwartz or transfer to USC with Dr. Friedman.  Because of my regrowth situation, I still need regular MRIs.  I chose to move my records to Keck/USC and Dr. Friedman remains my doctor.

Thoughts and prayers.

Clarice
Right MVD for trigeminal neuralgia, 1994, Pittsburgh, PA
Left retrosigmoid 2.6 cm AN removal, February, 2008, Duke U
Tumor regrew to 1.3 cm in February, 2011
Translab AN removal, May, 2011 at HEI, Friedman & Schwartz
Oticon Ponto Pro abutment implant at same time; processor added August, 2011

mcrue

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2015, 07:54:34 am »
My tumor is similar in size to your husbands. The exact same thing happened to me when I consulted with Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Friedman.

Dr. Schwartz recommended Middle Fossa while Dr. Friedman recommended Retrosigmoid. As others have mentioned, you likely should go with your instincts as both doctors are world famous in their field.

Go with a doctor who you think has the most integrity, skill, compassion, education and experience who produce the best results. Be wary of anyone who "guarantees" you won't have facial nerve issues, or other side effects such as hearing loss or headaches, because with any surgery there are no absolutes.

I think your husband also owes it to himself to get a free phone consultation with Dr. Chang at Stanford who does both Cyber Knife and traditional microsurgery.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 08:04:47 am by mcrue »
5/19/2015 - 40% sudden hearing loss + tinnitus right ear

6/26/2015 - AN diagnosed by MRI - 14mm x 7mm + 3mm extension

8/26/2015 - WIDEX "ZEN" hearing aid for my catastrophic tinnitus

12/15/2015: 18mm x 9mm + 9mm extension (5mm AGGRESSIVE GROWTH in 5 months)

3/03/2016:   Gamma Knife - Dr. Sheehan

JaneMD

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2015, 08:24:58 am »
These replies are so helpful to read -- thank you all so much, and please keep them coming.  The most helpful thing has been to see that it's clearly not a slam dunk decision, and others would struggle in the same manner.  The next most helpful thing has been to hear from folks who have had great outcomes. 

Mcrue:  How interesting that you experienced the same conundrum.  I'd be interested to know what you decide to do, when it's time to do something.  Also, I didn't mean to imply that anyone made any guarantees.  Both surgical teams were confident in their skills, but restrained in their predictions.  Dr. Schwartz noted in particular that the tumor is close to the cochlea, making my husband's chances of preserving hearing low on the relative scale of middle fossa surgeries. 

CHD63 and Steve2014:  it's helpful to read about your successful experiences at Keck with retrosigmoid, and very comforting that you didn't experience the crushing headaches that some people have described.  The vote of confidence for Keck is much appreciated, too. 

Rupert:  My husband is 45, and at his age, we aren't interested in radiation options.  They remain a great alternative, but one that we have ruled out for us, personally. 

michellef08

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2015, 10:44:10 am »
Hi Jane - I know you already know my story as we have chatted (on here and at the local support group) but I just wanted to post for anyone else reading...

I was lucky enough to have my Middle Fossa surgery done by Dr. Schwartz and Friedman at House 2.5 years ago. They preserved my hearing, with zero facial or balance issues at all.

Your husband's situation is very tough. I know Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Friedman were deciding between retro-sigmoid and middle fossa until the day before my surgery when they could see the results of my VNG, ABR and closer MRI. I know both doctors have this information for your husband so they can make a very informed decision regarding the location of the tumor in relation to the facial and balance nerves and cochlea. The main differences that stick out to me between the 2 teams is that Dr. Friedman said the surgery could be 3 hours, which seems a little short to me. My tumor was larger (1.4cm) but it took 6 hours. The other is that Dr. Schwartz said because of the placement that your husband will have a lower chance of hearing preservation in terms of Middle Fossa - maybe this is why Dr. Friedman wants to do retro-sigmoid instead? I believe the surgeons told me that Middle Fossa had a 70/30% hearing preservation, while retro-sigmoid had a 50/50% chance. Maybe with the location - the %s are more like equal, and then it is a matter of visual planes which differ by approaches? It is important to note that Schwartz/Gionnotta would be the actual surgeon removing the tumor from the facial and balance nerve. Although Dr. Friedman/Brackmann are instrumental, and no doubt geniusus, as I understand from my surgery report - they are responsible for opening and closing your head.

I will say that my tumor was actually bigger than they had originally thought. Mine was 1.4cm which is pushing the limits for Middle Fossa and it was "sticky on the facial nerve". However, Dr. Schwartz took this in stride by coming at the tumor with a bunch of different tools, from a bunch of different angles, and I didn't have a single facial issue post-op!

I agree with others that you are deciding between the very best teams, so you can't really go wrong! I believe it that Dr. Friedman told Steve2014 that headaches aren't really an issue with their teams as they have so many surgeries under their belts. I think as others said - it comes down to trusting your gut. Good luck and keep us updated!
~Michelle
Diagnosed Dec 2012: AN 1.4 cm with mild hearing loss and tinnitus. Surgery: Middle Fossa at House with Schwartz/Friedman on April 10, 2013. Entire tumor removed, no facial issues, no balance issues, and they preserved my hearing!! Co-leader of the Washington, DC ANA support group since 2016.

JaneMD

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 09:22:08 am »
Thanks to everyone who posted -- reading these have been super helpful.

We spoke to Dr. G last week, and it looks like we're sticking with USC/Keck.  It was absolutely not an easy decision.  In the end, it was the fact that Friedman/Giannotta can perform both procedures, but have chosen retrosigmoid as their preferred approach (for visualization and facial nerve preservation) that tipped the scales for us.  That and the fact that the team assured us that headaches are not a high risk in their hands. 

I think (you know:  since it's not my tumor) we have to go with my husband's gut feeling that we should stick with USC/Keck.  Schwartz, in particular, wants to be kept apprised of his progress, which I took to be from pure academic/scientific interest, and hopefully not so that if there's any issue, he can say he told us so.  Ugh. 

Hearing from those who did not experience headaches was very reassuring.  If anyone else wants to chime in, we are all ears. And puns. 

michellef08

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 01:29:04 pm »
Glad you have made a decision! The research and decision-making was definitely the worst part for me! Hope to see you guys at the meeting in January with a great outcome!!  :)
Diagnosed Dec 2012: AN 1.4 cm with mild hearing loss and tinnitus. Surgery: Middle Fossa at House with Schwartz/Friedman on April 10, 2013. Entire tumor removed, no facial issues, no balance issues, and they preserved my hearing!! Co-leader of the Washington, DC ANA support group since 2016.

mcrue

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2015, 12:05:33 pm »
It's a tough decision between both teams. 
5/19/2015 - 40% sudden hearing loss + tinnitus right ear

6/26/2015 - AN diagnosed by MRI - 14mm x 7mm + 3mm extension

8/26/2015 - WIDEX "ZEN" hearing aid for my catastrophic tinnitus

12/15/2015: 18mm x 9mm + 9mm extension (5mm AGGRESSIVE GROWTH in 5 months)

3/03/2016:   Gamma Knife - Dr. Sheehan

mcrue

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 02:40:30 am »
These replies are so helpful to read -- thank you all so much, and please keep them coming.  The most helpful thing has been to see that it's clearly not a slam dunk decision, and others would struggle in the same manner.  The next most helpful thing has been to hear from folks who have had great outcomes. 

Mcrue:  How interesting that you experienced the same conundrum.  I'd be interested to know what you decide to do, when it's time to do something.  Also, I didn't mean to imply that anyone made any guarantees.  Both surgical teams were confident in their skills, but restrained in their predictions.  Dr. Schwartz noted in particular that the tumor is close to the cochlea, making my husband's chances of preserving hearing low on the relative scale of middle fossa surgeries. 

CHD63 and Steve2014:  it's helpful to read about your successful experiences at Keck with retrosigmoid, and very comforting that you didn't experience the crushing headaches that some people have described.  The vote of confidence for Keck is much appreciated, too. 

Rupert:  My husband is 45, and at his age, we aren't interested in radiation options.  They remain a great alternative, but one that we have ruled out for us, personally.

JaneMD,

Thank you. I'm selecting radiation treatment.
5/19/2015 - 40% sudden hearing loss + tinnitus right ear

6/26/2015 - AN diagnosed by MRI - 14mm x 7mm + 3mm extension

8/26/2015 - WIDEX "ZEN" hearing aid for my catastrophic tinnitus

12/15/2015: 18mm x 9mm + 9mm extension (5mm AGGRESSIVE GROWTH in 5 months)

3/03/2016:   Gamma Knife - Dr. Sheehan

tonyc

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 01:59:34 pm »
Really want to know the results with Dr. Friedman/Glannotta. I'm in the very similar situation as JaneMD's hasband. Similar tumor size (mine is 1.3cmx0.7cmx0.7cm with minor extension) and choose between the two exact same teams.
08/2010, first vertigo episode and tinnitus, 9mm AN found in left ear. Wait and Watch.
01/2016,  AN increased to 13mm.
03/2016, Middle Fossa at House with Drs. Brackmann/Schwartz/Stefan. Entire tumor removed, no facial issues, hearing preserved.
09/2021, MRI showed no regrowth.

tonyc

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2016, 09:26:04 am »
Thank the Lord! I selected House Clinic Dr. Brackmann/Dr. Schwartz/Dr. Stefan for my 1.3cm AN two weeks ago. Excellent team! Middle fossa, best possible results for my tumor location and size: they got rid of the whole tumor, preserved my hearing, facial nerve. Currently work on minor balance issues.
08/2010, first vertigo episode and tinnitus, 9mm AN found in left ear. Wait and Watch.
01/2016,  AN increased to 13mm.
03/2016, Middle Fossa at House with Drs. Brackmann/Schwartz/Stefan. Entire tumor removed, no facial issues, hearing preserved.
09/2021, MRI showed no regrowth.

michellef08

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Re: Friedman/Giannotta vs. Brackmann/Schwartz -- any advice needed
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 09:31:40 am »
tonyc- That is so great!! Another amazing outcome from Dr. Schwartz!  :)
Diagnosed Dec 2012: AN 1.4 cm with mild hearing loss and tinnitus. Surgery: Middle Fossa at House with Schwartz/Friedman on April 10, 2013. Entire tumor removed, no facial issues, no balance issues, and they preserved my hearing!! Co-leader of the Washington, DC ANA support group since 2016.