Author Topic: ANA Central Calif. Meeting  (Read 5171 times)

Sam Rush

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« on: May 29, 2007, 09:36:56 pm »
We will be having our meeting Wed  June 6  7:00 pm at Clovis Hosp. Classroom,  Guest speaker will be neurosurgeon Dr. Brian Clague, who will speak on the cyberknife in general, and how it applies to AN pts. For more info, call me at 559 287 8266
1 cm AN translab, Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Schwartz, Dr Doherety HEI   11/04   Baha 7/05

ppearl214

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7451
  • ANA Forum Policewoman - PBW Cursed Cruise Director
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2007, 05:54:22 am »
Sam, thanks for the heads up on this for everyone. I'd love to hear about the talk that Dr. Clague will give about CK... will you share with us what he has to say after the meeting?  Would love to know.......

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Sam Rush

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2007, 10:57:10 am »
OK.  Dr Clague is an experienced neurosurgeon, who has only done a few AN surgeries, especially after the modern surgical tecqniques were developed. He is now retired from practice, and is CEO of a group of Doctors, in partjnership with Fresno Comm Medical Center who have brought a cyberknife to Fresno.  I told him in no uncertain terms, that I want his talk to be academically orientated, and not a marketing speech,. I will play the devil's advocate and contrast his results with microsurgery in experienced hands. We have several AN pre-treatment members who are very interested. I usually encourage microsurgery for those in otherwise good health, citing the House Clinic statistics.. Anyone who can come, call me for directions   559-287-8266  Family and friends welcome.
1 cm AN translab, Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Schwartz, Dr Doherety HEI   11/04   Baha 7/05

ppearl214

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7451
  • ANA Forum Policewoman - PBW Cursed Cruise Director
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 07:26:15 am »
Sam, what is Dr. Clague's experience in CK? How long has he performed it and where? 

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Sam Rush

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 10:22:45 am »
He is new at it, and mainly serves as a marketer for the other physician partners, which include oncologists and ent Drs. I get the feeling that he is just a token neurosurgeon to have on their board.  The unit here is new, and they have only done a few AN pts with it.   They approached me knowing I was an AN pt. and worked w/ the local support group. I agreed to let them give a presentation, as long as it was more academic than marketing. Also, they are providing refreshments and helping me organize the meeting. I still favor surgery in healthy people and have the statistics to back it up.
1 cm AN translab, Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Schwartz, Dr Doherety HEI   11/04   Baha 7/05

ppearl214

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7451
  • ANA Forum Policewoman - PBW Cursed Cruise Director
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 10:33:25 am »
Hi Sam and thanks..... well, it should be interesting and I pray that they give an "unbiased" opinion on it... it's a shame no dr that has experience in using CK (ie: Chang, etc) can attend as I think it would make it more "educational from experience".  It's great they are willing to help with refreshments and all..... so, will be real interested to see how they share the info and just how much will be marketing. 

As for your comment re: surgery over radio-surgery, I respect your thoughts and beliefs on  it..... but know that it is not the only viable source of AN treatments... please try to remain considerate as there is stats to back up radio treatments as extremely viable treatment options for AN's as well. Please note that radiosurgery is also now prevelent as a choice on smaller AN's with terrific outcomes...  please keep this all in mind....

thanks again,
Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Mark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 10:16:31 pm »
Sam,

I would echo Phyl's comments in that I respect your personal preference for surgery over radiosurgery. However, based on your earlier post you seem to put a lot of weight on studies specifically from HEI in forming that opinion, which I would challenge as to how many of those are "peer reviewed". I have researched a large number of national studies on both treatment options from a variety of teaching medical centers and I'm pretty sure I don't see a compelling case that the hearing and facial nerve preservation results for surgery are better than radiosurgery. That is above and beyond the possible complications of the surgery itself. I know from your previous posts that you are a big fan of HEI , and I would agree they are among the best at surgical ressection of AN's, however, having read posts in this forum over the years, while it is clearly their focus, I don't think their results are infallible either. As a presenter to a support group, I would agree with you that I would dissuade anyone from a marketing piece , which would include HEI if you brought them in. On the other hand, I would also hope you would keep your personal bias in check for the benefit of others in attendance and still considering both options.


Just my 2 cents


Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

Windsong

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 11:35:50 pm »
I think it's great that you are involved in the talk coming up for CK and that you are speaking also about surgery. I myself had fsr linac. (25 days)....

It is always good that info is given about the options one might have.

Bottom line is what stops the An and leaves us with the best after effects?

W.





« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 07:27:21 am by Windsong »

HeadCase2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • Carpe Grog
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 10:54:21 am »
Sam,
  To bad I don't live in CA, I'd like to attend your program on CK.  Well done on putting that together.  Don't worry about some of the comments about bias.  Looking at some of the comments above, it seems that some who ask for non-bias have a clear bias themselves.
Regards,
 Rob
1.5 X 1.0 cm AN- left side
Retrosigmoid 2/9/06
Duke Univ. Hospital

GrogMeister of the PBW

Sam Rush

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 02:10:58 pm »
This is supposed to be a support/educational forum. The educational part is where are the best outcomes and by who. Sure CK and other radiation is more convenient and less frightening , but some experienced groups (eg HEI) have such outstanding results from surgery, that the tumor is GONE!!! with extrememly rare recurrance. Don't have to worry about is it necrosing or not.

Do we want to educate people where to go for the least chance of facial paralysis, or not??

Do we want to educate people that HEI has the only internist in the WORLD, whose full time job is pre and post-op care of AN pts!!

I'm not biased, I'm a doctor, which is Greek for teacher. I don't get paid by HEI.

1 cm AN translab, Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Schwartz, Dr Doherety HEI   11/04   Baha 7/05

Mark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2007, 10:09:10 pm »
Sam,

I respect the fact that you are a doctor, but you most clearly have a bias in your perspective based on your comments. In the case of AN's I learned a long time ago that just being a doctor doesn't make one an expert in that specific area.

Do we want to educate people where to go for the least chance of facial paralysis, or not?? Sure, let's put all the clinical studies on the table. I've yet to see a study on radiosurgery that had a paralysis risk of greater than 1%, regardless of size. Surgery, in small AN's is probably as high as 95% , even at HEI and drops in percentage as the size of the AN increases.


Do we want to educate people that HEI has the only internist in the WORLD, whose full time job is pre and post-op care of AN pts!! Sure, we can tell people that although I'm not clear what an internist "dedicated to pre / post op AN pts" does to have any impact on facial / hearing nerve preservation or anything else related to the surgical outcome. I guess I need some help understanding the benefit of this beyond a marketing aspect.

but some experienced groups (eg HEI) have such outstanding results from surgery, that the tumor is GONE!!! with extrememly rare recurrance. Don't have to worry about is it necrosing or not. I'm sure you have some studies from HEI that support your position, but the best surgical outcome studies I've seen are around 95% while radisourgery typically comes in at 98%. Even if you want to say radiosurgery is something less, it is still equal or better than surgery. One can argue against having it dead and doing no further harm vs. having it physically removed at the expense of the trauma to tissue it causes. As a doctor, I'm sure you would also agree with the risk of post surgical complications or noscomial infection associated with a hospital stay. While I'm not a clinician, I have been involved with medical supplies and the clinicians who use them for 25 plus years and have a pretty good understanding of how many people have prolonged hospital stays or don't check out at all because of those risks and HEI is not immune to that either.

I'm not biased, I'm a doctor, which is Greek for teacher. I don't get paid by HEI. I don't know Greek, but I do know a good teacher creates an environment where the students are provided information in an open environment from which they can challenge and draw their own conclusions. I have responsibility for 10 business units doing over a Billion dollars in revenue and involving a thousand employees, so my role involves teaching every day. There is a fine line between moderating a meeting with competing points of view for an educational purpose and being adversarial and trying to influence the audience. As Phyl said in her initial post in this thread, I think the evidence is pretty compelling that both treatment options can be viable and effective. If you're positioning the discussion along those lines from the start then that's very fair, and I sincerely hope that is your intent.

Mark





CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

HeadCase2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • Carpe Grog
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 07:29:42 am »
Mark,
  I'm becoming uncomfortable with your attacks on people who may not share your views.  The quotes from Sam's that you then try to take apart tooth and nail are petty.  As far as bias, from your post in this forum, you clearly have a bias toward radiosurgery.  If you feel that radiosurgery is the better treatment, fine.  Statistics don't always tell the whole story.  A personal decision for treatment type can be based on many factors including outcome statistics.
  Sam is involved in his local support group by engaging professionals to present their technology.  I fully support, and applaud, his doing so for the educational benefit of AN patients.  You should too.
Regards,
 Rob
1.5 X 1.0 cm AN- left side
Retrosigmoid 2/9/06
Duke Univ. Hospital

GrogMeister of the PBW

Sam Rush

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 09:22:58 am »
I'm sorry I started this thread. I'm not here as a Doctor, but as an AN patient, who had never seen a case of AN until my own. I have researched it for my own benefit and  then got the best treatment in the world. I will no longer recc. anything to anybody in this subject, except to do your own research.   However, if I find a case of AN in one of my patients, they are going to consult with House clinic.
1 cm AN translab, Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Schwartz, Dr Doherety HEI   11/04   Baha 7/05

Windsong

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 09:48:17 am »
Keep posting Sam. We need all sides here. And we need to be reminded of them.

For the rest of you, I'd like to add that as far as radiation treatment goes, not everyone has ck in their backyard and thus the magic 98% that Mark mentioned plus it may not be available, plus plenty of places give a smaller % even 95% and 90-95% in person even when their stats are higher.... The thing is many variables come into the picture:   size, location location location (it's like real estate), and so on. I was fortunate to discuss surgery, GK, and linac fsr and i spoke in person with Aners from each treatment modality and there were those in each who had very successful outcomes and gave me detailed stories. My particular circumstances meant fsr was the way to go for me...

Sam's workshop/conference hasn't even happened yet so it blows me away to see comments about bias like this.

And, heck, I'd be tooting my horn regardless of which treatment i'd had if it was succcessful so right now i will toot it for 25 fsr days... ;D

So here's a thumbs up for a conference that Sam as an Aner is putting together that will offer info on surgery at house and radiation with ck.   :D "Good to go!"

W.


ppearl214

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7451
  • ANA Forum Policewoman - PBW Cursed Cruise Director
Re: ANA Central Calif. Meeting
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 09:51:32 am »
Sam, your ultimate goal of organizing this event and informing all of it if they would like to attend has been achieved. I hope you have a terrific turnout and again, please keep us updated as to how it goes and what the dr has to say. 

I hope it is a successful day for you.

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"