Author Topic: Stanford Cyberknife  (Read 7426 times)

CC

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Stanford Cyberknife
« on: September 27, 2005, 09:08:29 am »
I was wondering whether anyone out there had been treated with cyberknife by Dr Chang at Stanford.

I sent my MRIs and audiograms to his office for a diagnosis and asked that I speak with him when they'd reached a decision.  I was keen to have him look at the MRIs as I was told he did both surgery and cyberknife and I was looking for an objective diagnosis for my particular case.

My gripe is that it is impossible to speak with Dr Chang (or so his office have told me).  After they'd received my MRIs I got back a short e-mail from a nurse saying that as hearing was important to me they would recommend treating my AN with CK but I have more questions that require answers before I make a final decision.  To be honest, the nurse did offer to try and answer the questions herself but that isn't what I'm after.  I am even willing to pay for a phone consultation. 

Ironically, although not yet seriously considering surgery (but not yet ruling it out), Dr Brackmann at House has been much more approachable, helpful and considerate, offering to send research material, and answering my many questions (before I'd even seen my MRIs) and generally treating me like he wanted what's best for me (be it surgery or CK).  I had expected this from Stanford given the number of glowing reports from folks on this and the CK members board.  Maybe I was wrong to expect this.

At the moment I'd really prefer to have CK than surgery but given the impersonal reaction from Stanford I'mconsidering rethinking this.  I live in Washington DC so it's impossible to make two trips to California (one for a face to face consultation to have my questions answered then another to have the treatment).  I've ruled out treatment at hospitals within a few hours of DC as I've read of too many regrowths and failed treatments at those facilities.

Has anyone any comments? Am I asking too much?

CC
CC
3cm AN
CK Oct 05
with Dr Chang at Stanford

matti

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2005, 09:43:26 am »
I don't think you are asking too much, and I do not think there is any reason why Dr. Chang can not get on the phone with you and answer your questions. I had my AN surgery done at Stanford 7 years ago at the California Ear Institute by Drs. Joseph Roberson and Gary Steinberg. Whatever questions I had and still have, they are accesible and if they for some reason aren't, then I will speak to an associate.

This is aweful what they are doing to you and it certainly does raise a red flag.

Good luck and keep us posted.

matti
3.5 cm  - left side  Single sided deafness 
Middle Fossa Approach - California Ear Institute at Stanford - July 1998
Dr. Joseph Roberson and Dr. Gary Steinberg
Life is great at 50

Mark

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2005, 11:16:01 am »
CC,

I'll send you a private message, but let me see if I can help you with getting your questions for Dr. Chang answered. My experience is that he has always been very generous with his time in talking with patients and in fact donates time to monitor questions on the CPSG board on occassion. That being said, I also know he is very busy balancing his clinical and academic schedules.

Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

jamie

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2005, 11:20:49 am »
Hi CC

Mark was treated by Dr. Chang, I'm sure he can provide more info for you. Keep in mind Dr. Chang is a top neurosurgeon as well as a provider of CyberKnife, and probably has a very tight schedule dealing with every other kind of neurological issue (injuries, spine issues, etc.) at one of the nations top teaching hospitals. The surgeons at House are busy too I'm sure, but I doubt they have as much on their plate as he likely does. However I agree a patient should feel totally comfortable with their doctor, and if you feel like you're not important to a specific provider, perhaps you should look elsewhere. Since you live in D.C., why would you travel all the way to Stanford anyway? There are many CyberKnife providers much closer to you, and since the machine does all the work, you should get the same results at say Menorah in Oklahoma as you would at Stanford, the treatment plan for specific tumors is pretty uniform.

I went to Barrow here in Phoenix, and Dr. Kresl was awesome. I had a few questions that popped into my head after my first treatment, so the next day I went in for my second treatment and the CK tech located Dr. Kresl and told him, despite his busy schedule he quickly came into the room, pulled up a chair and fully addressed every question I had. If you're looking for a CyberKnife provider that you really feel cares about your needs, Dr. Kresl is definetly one of them. Dr. Medberry at the Menorah center in OK is also very quick in answering questions on the CK support board, and he seems like a really cool guy too. I just think it would be unfortunate for you to make a treatment decision based on the tight schedule of one provider. :)

Jamie  

EDIT: Looks like Mark has already responded.
CyberKnife radiosurgery at Barrow Neurological Institute; 2.3 cm lower cranial nerve schwannoma

Mark

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2005, 11:41:56 am »
CC,

While Stanford is where the CK was developed and is the most experienced team, Jaime makes a very good point that since radiosurgery is so computerized and Acoustic Neuroma treatment plans are not the most difficult thing CK does, I would feel very comfortable at any other sites.

A slight clarification to Jaime's post , Dr. Medbery is at St Anthony in Okla city and Dr. Rosenberg is at Menorah in KC. Actually, there is a CK right there in DC at Georgetown and also one at Sinai in Baltimore. I'll try to paste a some information on both here.

Mark


Georgetown University
3800 Reservoir Road NW
Washington, DC 20007
(202) 444-2000
View Web Site...
E-Mail: info@hospital.org

Neuro Radiosurgery:
   Dr. Walter Jean
   202-444-4639 or
   202-444-4562

Radiation Oncology:
   Dr. Greg Gagnon
   301-762-5595
   Dr. K. William Harter
   202-444-3320



Sinai Hospital of Baltimore
2401 W. Belvedere Avenue
Baltimore, MD 21215
Ph: (410) 601-WELL
View WebSite...

Neuro Radiosurgery
   Gary Dix, M.D.
   Aga Khan, M.D.
   Neal Naff, M.D.

Radiation Oncology
   Mark Brenner, M.D.
   Cardella Coleman, M.D.
   S. Christopher Hoffelt, M.D.
   Chad Lee, Ph.D.
   Robin Krug, R.T.T.
   Paul Scott, R.T.T.
   Michele Bowling, CMA

CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

jamie

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2005, 11:48:43 am »
A slight clarification to Jaime's post , Dr. Medbery is at St Anthony in Okla city and Dr. Rosenberg is at Menorah in KC.

Oops! My bad. I guess all the different facilites get jumbled in my head sometimes, lol.  8)
CyberKnife radiosurgery at Barrow Neurological Institute; 2.3 cm lower cranial nerve schwannoma

Mark

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2005, 02:51:14 pm »
CC,

I heard back from Dr. Chang's office, I'll send you some information on a private message

Mark
CK for a 2 cm AN with Dr. Chang/ Dr. Gibbs at Stanford
November 2001

CC

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2005, 02:57:56 pm »
Mark

I've sent you a personal e-mail replying to yours. 

Jamie

Thanks as always for your views.  I shall certainly keep Dr Kresl in mind if Stanford goes sour.
hope your recovery s=continues to go smoothly.

CC
CC
3cm AN
CK Oct 05
with Dr Chang at Stanford

jerry.torres

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2005, 03:20:10 pm »
Have you considered GK?  I have it done last February (.7mm) AN at the University of VA.  I have had little side effects and my hearing was preserved.  Dr. Steiner is highly experienced and has done many GK treatments.  Visit the UVA website at http://uvagammaknife.com/.  Good luck-- Jerry

CC

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2005, 07:07:22 am »
Thanks to all for their comments and assistance - especially Mark whose magic seemed to help things along.

I was provided with Dr Chang's e-mail and the e-mail of a nurse pratitioner in the clinic at Stanford.  I sent off my questions to Dr Chang yesterday afternoon.  By the time I logged on this morning (9am DC time) he had replied to all my questions.  In the interest of wiping Stanford's slate clean here is the nurse practitioner's reply:

"we have 3 nurse practitioners who work in the Cyberknife team.  We do a weekly pro bono review of outside scans a week.  We literally review dozens of scans each week to help people with decisions on treatment.  Usually we try and call the patient to discuss the review.  It is rare that we just send an e-mail.  I will give Dr. Chang an opportunity to answer your ?s.  If you wish to talk to me – you can call me or the other 2 nurses anytime."

I also thought that some may be intersted in Dr Chang's replies to my questions.  They're questions I think most people would ask in a consultation and his answers are considered and in plain english (always a good thing - shows he knows his stuff).  So here are my questions and his answers:


1.   On the basis of the position of my AN in the CPA and its protrusion from the IAC what do you judge to be the relative risks of CK and surgery (which I understand would have to be done through the sub-occipital approach)?

The surgical risks of the surgery include the usual infection, bleeding, stroke, anesthesia, etc.  The specific risks to the hearing nerve for a tumor your size is at least 90% chance of hearing loss even with a suboccipital approach.  The risk of facial nerve injury would be on the order of 20-25% with surgery.  The risks of facial nerve injury with cyberknife is less than 1%, but again, that is an average, so it is possible to have facial injury with radiosurgery.  The probability of maintaining your hearing is at least 70% with radiosurgery, but that means 30% may have some decrease, with the average decrease being 12 dB and an occasional rare patient having complete hearing loss

2.   As you may be aware I am a musician and a key goal in treating this is retaining my hearing given that it’s highly serviceable in the speech range (and <20dB difference between left and right ears).  I am attracted to the CK approach.  Can you tell me precisely what your outcomes are for hearing preservation and tumor control for a 1.77cm AN?

2. As far as hearing preservation, the risk with the cyberknife is not related to tumor size to any significant extent (unlike surgery) so I cannot make a generalization as to how 1.7 cm ANs do.  The average hearing preservation rate is 74 to 77%.  The average dB decrease in all patients (those 70% that maintain hearing and the 30% with decreased hearing is 12 dB).  Incidentally, hearing loss at the time of presentation is also not necessarily correlated to size of tumor.  I have many patient with a AN over 20 mm that have normal hearing, and other with decreased hearing at 5 mm

3.   If I was to have CK what treatment regimen would I undertake?  How many fractions, what dosage (including how much total dosage) and why?

3. We use 18 Gy in 3 treatments of 6 Gy each.  We feel that is the best balance between dose to kill the tumor and minimizing risk to the hearing nerve.  We have used 3 treatments for 12 years now, and our current dose of 18Gy has been used since 1999.

4.   Would you be so kind as to explain the process – how the Accuray machine determines the position of each “shotâ€??  Would you also advise who does the programming?  Do you supervise the procedure or do you delegate it?  If so, to whom do you delegate?

4. The choice of the positioning for each beam is chosen by the computer.  The doctors input the tumor volume, and the computer calculates the optimal beam positions based upon the millions of possible iterations.  The beam positions are not chosen by a human, but by the computer, so there is not any human input as to the choice of beam positions, and therefore nothing that gets delegated since it is all done by the computer.

5.   What is your measured error distance for the “beamâ€??

5. Total clinical error is between 0.9 mm and 1.1 mm for the treatment.  The largest sources of error 0.6 mm actually comes from the errors intrinsic to the CT and MRI images.

6.   How long have you been using this particular protocol? When did you last change your protocol?

6. We have been using our current protocol since 1999, with no changes.

7.   Given no complications, at what frequency would I need to have follow-up MRIs?

7. We typically request MRI and audiograms every 6 months for the first two years, and then once a year for the next two, and then every 2 to 3 years after that

8.   Every surgeon to whom I have spoken has recommended surgery, and every radiosurgeon radiosurgery.  Would you give me a medical reason why in my case CK is preferable over surgery?  Is the tumor sitting side by side with the cerebellum?  If so, and swelling occurs post CK treatments, what damage (and symptoms), both permanent and temporary can I expect?  I am currently reasonably asymptomatic for an AN of this size.

8. I can't speak for other surgeons, but I do both open surgery and radiosurgery, with roughly a 50-50 balance between the two.  Last year I treated 600 patients, with brain tumors, with slightly less than 300 going to the operating room and slightly more than 300 receiving the Cyberknife.  I operate on large acoustic neuromas, and I do radiosurgery on most others.  Since I do both, I try to choose the best treatment option for each patient.   I presume that the other physicians that you mention may only do surgery, for example, but I know of very few people that do radiosugery than do not do open surgery.  I suspect that those that you have spoken to also do open surgery, but I also suspect that those that you have spoken to regarding surgery only do surgery.

Radiosurgery is not zero risk, but the risks are much lower than open surgery.  I base my recommendations in your case on what I would do if I had this tumor or if it were in my mother or father, and if it were me or them, I would choose radiosurgery.  Each patient needs to make their own decision however, so you would need to choose what you feel comfortable with.



I'm pretty happy with the comprehensive replies to my questions.  And, although I offered payment for a phone consultation he refused as apparently insurance companies define "consultation" as a physical examination of patient by doctor and this obviously can't be done over the phone.  So there you are.  Seems this whole episode may have been a glitch in the system but good to make them aware when things go awry.  I would probably have just gone eslewhere had it not been for Mark's intervention.  Lesson to the wise I guess.  I just wait to get House's diagnosis today - primarily to compare information - I really don't want anyone going into my head at this stage now.  Maybe in 10 or 20 years but not now.

CC

CC
3cm AN
CK Oct 05
with Dr Chang at Stanford

SuzeAN

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2005, 12:42:38 am »
CC,
Thanks for your post, I am going for Cyberknife for my 2.5cm vestibular schwannoma at Barrows in Phoenix, like Jamie I found Dr Kresl to be quite understanding and thorough in his explaination.  I am glad to see that many of the questions you had for Dr Chang mirrored my questions I had had for Dr Kresl and their responses are consistent.  I am still nervous about the whole thing but grateful that we have this as an option for treatment.  Good luck in your "journey", will keep you updated as to how my treatment goes. 
Sue
2.5 cm, left side
CK-Barrows 10/05

jeremy

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2005, 09:24:20 pm »
I'm another newbie trying to figure out the GK vs. surgery approach.  I'd like to get Dr. Chang's opinion, if someone could send along the magic contact info for him...

thx,
j

CC

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2005, 08:46:34 am »
Sorry Jeremy

I've been busy packing for my trip to Stanford.  Dr Chang does free consultations.  You just mail your MRIs to his office (or send on cd if you have it in that format) and they get back to you with their opinion on whether your AN is treatable with CK.  Best if you phone his office direct and they will give you all the details.  The number is: (650) 723-5573

I would suggest you include some questions too and Dr Chang does both microsurgery and radiosurgery (on about a 50/50 basis) so can answer any questions you have.

I'm happy to share any information I have with you before I fly out to Stanford on Sunday.  You can see the questions I asked and his replies in the threads above.  I also have his research paper on "Staged Stereotactic Radiation for Acoustic Neuroma".  It has some facts and figures in it and to my knowledge is the first report on CK. 

I'm sure others will tell you that you need to collect as much information as possible then come to your own decision on what you think is best for you.  The one thing we've all found is that usually there is no right or wrong decision - it's what you feel most comfortable with.  For me, the location of my 1.8cm AN meant that middle fossia surgery was not an option.  I was not thrilled with the prospects of life debilitating headaches and HCF leak from retrosigmoid surgery and so tranlab was the only surgical method I could consider.  Of course this meant total hearing loss in an ear that has minimal hearing loss (and none in speech range).  And to be truthful I didn't fancy the idea of someone cutting open my head.  So for me CK was a viable option.  The conclusion I came to was that as translab was the surgery used if CK fails then I had nothing to lose by trying CK first.  If it works then I'll have avoided surgery and the AN will die.  If it doesn't then translab was the only option available anyway.  But that was my decision for my AN - you need to decide what works best for you.

I also suggest you speak with Dr Brackmann at the House Ear Clinic to get the surgical side of the picture (but be wanred House hates radiosurgery so will be down on this method).  House also does free consultations if you send in your MRIs.  Their address is somewhere on this website.  You really need as much information as your brain can handle without toal overload.  We all become mini experts in this!  Good luck

CC
CC
3cm AN
CK Oct 05
with Dr Chang at Stanford

shoegirl

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2005, 11:49:30 pm »
CC,

I was reading your previous post and was wondering how your Cyberknife went?  I hope you are feeling okay!  Any side effects?  How many treatments did you have?  I am considering CK at Barrow's. 

I hope all is well with you that your treatment was a success!

Take Care! Suzanne
left side 2.0cm x 1.3cm  
Cyberknife - 12/2005
The Barrow Institute, Phoenix, AZ

CC

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Re: Stanford Cyberknife
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2005, 05:37:17 pm »
Suzeanne and others

I had my first CK treatment today (day 3).  The first day was an appointment with Dr Chang and the radiation oncologist Dr Soltys.  Both of them were amazing and answered every stupid question I could come up with (including explaining exactly what the radiation did to the DNA of the cell).  Day two I turned up mighty early (730am) to have an IV inserted so they could inject me with a contrast (iodine) and do a CT scan.  Chang explained that because MRIs can only be set to photograph larger slices of the brain they weren't quite as accurate as they'd like.  Apparently they can adjust the CT scanner to take pics at 0.5mm or less distance between slices.  So they get a much more accurate picture of the exact size, shape and location of the AN and what's around it.  The science is absolutely fascinating - in my next life I want to come back as a CK expert!  They also fitted the mask - word from the wise - don't go with gorgeous hair and make up (not that I did) - it's a bit of a wet and sticky process and you'll come out looking as if you've just climbed out of bed!  They did tell me I would feel warm all over and have a metallic taste from the iodine contrast.  I had neither.

Today I had my first 'real' treatment.  I had loaded up my iPod with favourite tunes and plugged it into their music system.  After that I just lay back' litened to music and relaxed for 45mins.  They told me I would hear noise - I expected to hear the machine move about noisily (silly me - it was smooth and quiet).  Anyway, apart from the bright light on your face when it repositions the whole thing was just like lying on a bench relaxing.  At the end they gave me a steroid pill so now I feel I could run across the country.  but apart from that I have no other effects.  I actually feel really great.  So good luck with Barrow - I've heard great things about it.  My friends, who are all Neal Stephenson fans, are referring to me as the newest cyberchild.  I kinda like that!

Cheers
CC
CC
3cm AN
CK Oct 05
with Dr Chang at Stanford