Author Topic: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?  (Read 14999 times)

lifeisgood

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How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« on: October 12, 2008, 09:45:00 pm »
Hi,
I'm not new to the post regarding headaches.  I've suffered face pain/headaches which have baffled several different doctors for 4 years.
I feel like I am going on a wild goose chase to find answers.
I am now full circle.  My ENT who I visited as a last resort is sending me back to my Otologist who did my surgery to try to explain why I have these pains in my face.  It feels like TMJ or clenching.  I've been to the Diamond Headache clinic who put me on Neurontin.  Did not work.  They also put me on Topomax.  Did not work.  Imitrex was prescribed by me and it did seem to work temporarily.  Most recently, I was put on another drug by another neurologist who my other surgeon (neurosurgeon) referred me to.

I feel like I was just released from my surgical team after the procedure.  They don't seem to have the answers to my post headache pain.
Does anyone else feel this way?  I really liked and respect my team but when I was sent back to them again , I feel like they should be able to read my MRI's and explain to me why I am feeling like I am.  I would at least like them to review my scan and acknowledge the scar tissue build up or something. 

I just don't understand why the team of surgeons who removed the AN can't explain what's going on with me.  I am going there on Tues and hope to get some answers.  I am really angry at this point in time and want some answers.  I had a large AN removed (4cm) but want more info than "it was sticky  and the facial nerve was very involved with the tumor.

Anyone else frustrated with the responses that they have received?
Am I being too reliant on the team who removed it to give me answers?


Mary
3.4cm AN surgically removed 3/04
by Dr. Wiet and Kazan at Hinsdale Hospital in Illinois.
Translab approach

bridgie

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 11:22:37 pm »
Mary!
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes....

This is exactly what has happened to me as well over the last 4 years. My surgical team have clueless. Up ntil recently I gave up on them. I've been left to wander on my own to find answers. PM do not give diagnosis. Headache specialists do not have experience and there is not much research in regards to these headache issues. You've probably read my threads. I'd finally diagnosed myself w/chronic post craniotomy headaches and point blank asked my Neurosurgeon if he thought I could have scarring/adhesions attached to dura. I'd noticed I had enhancing still where I'd had surgery 4 years ago. (I'm a former X-ray tech and likely have an easier time putting two and two together.) This got him thinking. Anyway he did tell me the enhancing is likely from scarring. At first he said this does not usually happen to people w/temporal fossa approach, mainly w/occipital approach when they did not use plates etc. Well..I do not have titaniun plate and I had an epidural abscess. Welll.....the bottom line I got 'em thinking outside the box. Another thing that helped me.... I got the a couple tapes from ANA meetings and listened to the headache lectures. This also helped me understand that there is little research about these type of headaches which is likely going to contribute to use not getting help. Mary, have you had a recent MRI and d o you have the report, if so what does it say?
Bridgie

Larry

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 11:43:03 pm »
Hi guys,

A number of us have this issue with post op headaches. I've tried it all and to no avail. there is another alternative and have a look at some posts from Janet on occipital nerve surgery. She has had some positive results from this.

regards


Laz
2.0cm AN removed Nov 2002.
Dr Chang St Vincents, Sydney
Australia. Regrowth discovered
Nov 2005. Watch and wait until 2010 when I had radiotherapy. 20% shrinkage and no change since - You beauty
Chronologer of the PBW
http://www.frappr.com/laz

sgerrard

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 09:28:16 am »
My impression is that ENTs specialize in diagnosing an AN, and surgeons in removing one, and oncologists in radiating one, but no one specializes in dealing with the after effects of having had an AN. They all pretty much just punt.

One exception would be some of the facial retraining people, who do spend some time on how to recover from effects on the facial nerve. There are probably some neurologists who can help with other nerve effects. The chronic headaches, though, seem to fall through the cracks, as Bridgie suggested. There is no one solution for all, but if you keep trying, you may find a clinic or doctor who can do something in your own case. Trapped nerve; dural adhesions;  nerve blocks; something.

I wish you the best.

Steve
8 mm left AN June 2007,  CK at Stanford Sept 2007.
Hearing lasted a while, but left side is deaf now.
Right side is weak too. Life is quiet.

ppearl214

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 09:38:34 am »
My impression is that ENTs specialize in diagnosing an AN, and surgeons in removing one, and oncologists in radiating one, but no one specializes in dealing with the after effects of having had an AN. They all pretty much just punt.

agreed. I have many doing my follows up and most difficult to figure out which to use as the primary follow up. I have the radio-onc doing the follow up to make sure the brain booger is dead. I have the neuro-onc doing the follow up's for post-radio after affects (ie: balance/vertigo issues, headache follow up, etc). I have my primary care physician doing overall follow up and now, my pain mgt doc doing all pain follow ups (many know here that I have multiple ailments.... the pain mgt doc is working with me on these but is also following along post-radio for my AN)

IMO, surgeons will do immediate follow up but not for long.  I guess, to me, the question is... if they maintain follow up, how long should they follow up?  Also, for me, I have a concern of those that fly to different locations to have treatments (regardless of radio or microsurgical) and then fly home. If there are issues, who should do that follow up? 

Just my opinion.
Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

lifeisgood

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 10:29:30 am »
THank you all for responding.
Yes, I had several post surgery MRI's, the latest being last June.
I am taking film in hand to see Dr. Wiet tomorrow.
I really love this doctor but really feel that more needs to be done to prepare patients post surgery.
I was told "your face will come back in 6-12 months".  Not, but you could have all sorts of issues with headaches /face aches/migraines/TMJ like symptoms which will lead you to running around expending a ton of energy trying to find answers to questions which have no answers.
:)

Fatigue has also been an issue.  I told him that 2 years ago and was told that I should be "back to normal" around 6 months post surgery and I should have other issues checked out to ensure that it isn't something else.
I know from posts that fatigue is common.  All of my bloodwork came back great.  I had my thyroid checked and we are monitoring some cysts every 6 months.  I also have 2 kids.  (3 and 5) youngest has autism so that sucks a lot of energy out of me.

I am fortunate to have the opportunity to be a stay at home mom and have a supportive husband.  We spend time in Florida during the winter so my face gets a break from the cold.

I did see Jackie and liked her a lot.  I guess nobody is going to be able to tell me how long this will last.
On the upside, I have no eye issues/balance is ok/ and MRI's are clean.  I am also not debilitated by the pain on a daily basis.
They may hit me twice a month and last for 2-3 days.  They are also hormonally impacted (period and ovulation).  Imitrex will work most of the time. I also do motrin.

Hope to meet you guys next year at the symposium in Chicago.  I've tried without success to get to past ones.
Mary
3.4cm AN surgically removed 3/04
by Dr. Wiet and Kazan at Hinsdale Hospital in Illinois.
Translab approach

JerseyGirl2

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 12:14:58 pm »
Phyl poses a good question when she asks: "Also, for me, I have a concern for those that fly to different locations to have treatments ... and then fly home. If there are issues, who should do that follow-up?"

That was certainly a question I asked my New Jersey otolaryngologist when I decided to follow his advice and go to House for my surgery. He assured me that he would be able to handle any post-surgery issues I might have (and of course I would have certainly insisted that he be in frequent communication with House!) ... and I had enough faith in him to feel that would work out. If I had absolutely needed to, I wouldn't have hesitated to fly back to L.A. I am very thankful that I didn't have to deal with either of these strategies.

Catherine (JerseyGirl2)
Translab surgery and BAHA implant: House Ear Institute, Los Angeles, 1/2008
Drs. J. House, Schwartz, Wilkinson, and Stefan
BAHA Intenso, 6/2008
no facial, balance, or vision problems either before or after surgery ... just hearing loss
Monmouth County, NJ

lifeisgood

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 06:08:17 pm »
Regarding fatigue, I found out today that I am anemic.  I have been complaining of fatigue for a couple of years.  You would think that this would be an indicator to test for anemia.  I have horrible heavy periods and they finally tested me.
Hoping that if I start taking care of myself and taking the vitamins and iron that it would get better.

Still, I feel good that at least I am addressing the fatigue.  Hey, it's all related.  Maybe the headaches are a spiral off the fatigue.

Wishful thinking.
:)
Mary
3.4cm AN surgically removed 3/04
by Dr. Wiet and Kazan at Hinsdale Hospital in Illinois.
Translab approach

Kate B

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2008, 06:36:22 pm »
Hi Mary,

It has been a long time.  I am sorry to hear that you still have headaches.  How often do you get them? Have you been to a neurologist?  Dr. Armita Bijari is the person I'd recommend. She is also in Hinsdale.

You have a lot going on with two young ones and one with special needs. I am glad you finally found an answer of anemia which may be causing some of the fatigue.

Kate
Kate
Middle Fossa Surgery
@ House Ear Institute with
Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Hitselberger
November 2001
1.5 right sided AN

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bridgie

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 07:52:43 pm »
Yes, we have many factors that will affect overall wellbeing. We do not live in a petri dish so its easier for physicians to attribute our issues like fatigue, headaches etc to others things.  I feel my doctors have less wiggle room to attribute my head pain to too many other issues besides the craniotomy since the problem came along when I was having a series of craniotomies. I'd had four craniotomies within 7 months!

Mary, if you are getting heavy periods and are now anemic, has your PCP or Gyn done an untrasound to check for things like fibroids?

Phyl, I'd traveled (400 miles) to have my initial craniotomy. I ran into serious life threatening complications post surgery. I did not have support locally like I should have. Its not that I didn't have a PCP or a neurologist and ENT locally, but no one rose to the occasion and as a result my complications were compounded. It was a nightmare.

Some things I'm currently benefiting from:
1) Last year I changed PCP. He runs a consierge practice. Its like a membership. I pay a fee once per year. His practice is limited to 350 patients rather then the normal approx primary care doctor/patient ratio of 1500 patients per doctor. He can spend more time with me when I see him. If I need to talk with him he's very accessable in a number of ways. He can take the time to help me research my condition.  I can go on and on but I know if I got into serious trouble as I did, at least I know I'm not going to feel abandoned by my local doctors. My insurance plan is thinner then I'd like it to be. Frankly, its saving me resources ($) to pay this doctors fee then to increase the insurance coverage and help a big corporations bottomline.
 
2) I've worked hard to educate myself about my own anatomy and condition. I'm asking very specific questions that force everyone I'm dealing with to not dismiss me and simply tell me to go to a pain clinic or headache specialist. For me the occipital nerve block is not the answer as I did not have surgery in that region. The issue may or may not be related to scar tissue but I'm still asking for the surgeons to try to tease that issue out.
3) Hard for my NS to tease the answer out regarding the dura/muscle/scarring of the temporalis muscle. In order to determine if this is the problem prior to surgery they would need to inject numbing meds into the dura etc. If they tried this, it would numb up the brain too and knock me out. If I were knocked out I'd not be able to say if its working on the pain! So the only experiment is simply to go forward with the surgery. Its possible I will not benefit from adding the plate and untangling the muscle if in fact its tangled in the scarring and dura etc. 

Once again check out the definition of "chronic post craniotomy headache." Specifially ask your doctor if he thinks this is what is causing your pain. Most become confused when you ask this. IMHO they seem to have this misnomer that in order to be classified as having a chronic post craniotomy headache you have to have the issue whereby the dura is attached to the occipital muscle. But in reality there are other reasons to classify CPCH. Its just that this occipital thing is the one that is easier to determine and there is a lot of documentation and studies regarding treatment. Plus normally they use titanium plates which helps prevent the headaches from being an issue as often as it used to. If you have a headache problem they will automatically assume (I'm assuming this) that its not something they can help you with and you need to see a pain person not them. 

Anyway, if the doctor/surgeon says he does not know if you have CPCH, ask if you have enhancement (most current brain MRI) in the area where your surgery was. On MRI this is a brightness or defuse whiteness. You see for me I had a lot of enhancement when I had the epidural abscess four years ago. Now on the MRI last month the white area is much smaller, but still I get enhancement. This enhancement is like a reaction to the  tissue in this specific area when they inject the dye. This lead my NS to have his assitant call me back and report my MRI was perfect, nothing was wrong and if I continue to get headaches I should see a headache specialist or go to a PC-- all of which I've been doing. Of course what he really meant was I do not have something acute going on that needs to be operated on emergently. If I hadn't known this I might have let it go as most here are saying happens to them ...or I'd have gotten even more frustrated. Insteed because he couldn't dismiss me so easily and I was being reasonable, respectful and rational, his assitant set up an appointment with the NS to talk with me directly. I'd also asked the assistant what he meant by normal..."normal as in normal or "normal" as in its not something NS could see something to operate on. And then I started asking about the enhancement on the imaging, stuff I knew his assistant couldn't answer. 

At any rate, if you are getting enhancement (see radiology report) ask what its from. My doctor (NS) said it was likely scarring. This is when I asked if the scarring might be stuck to the dura causing pain.     

I hope this helps.

Check headache classifications here on p.62. CPCH are the last type described here. http://216.25.100.131/ihscommon/guidelines/pdfs/ihc_II_main_no_print.pdf

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 08:08:07 pm by bridgie »

Omaschwannoma

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 07:33:03 am »
After reading through this site I would like to ask if it is at all possible to have this particular topic talked about at the Symposium.  The frustration some patients go through going from one doctor to another (me included) and finding no answers is maddening and worse yet can be detrimental to recovery when we travel a great distance for our treatments. 

I don't know if the ANA has anything in their info packet suggesting to patients traveling outside their town to make sure they have other doctors in town AND knowledgeable in vestibular schwannomas lined up in case they have post treatment issues. 

This is my humble opinion, thanks.  I'll go to the back of the room and be quiet now. 
1/05 Retrosigmoid 1.5cm AN left ear, SSD
2/08 Labyrinthectomy left ear 
Dr. Patrick Antonelli Shands at University of Florida, Gainesville, FL
12/09 diagnosis of semicircular canal dehiscence right ear

Cheryl R

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 08:13:33 am »
No need to be quiet as you are very knowlegeable about ANs and it is too bad it is mostly due to what you have been thru.                     I think this is a very good idea as many who do attend are ones who have not had treatment yet and hoping they learn what may be best for them.
The ANA needs to know this so they can make sure is part of a general session.
                                               Cheryl R
Right mid fossa 11-01-01
  left tumor found 5-03,so have NF2
  trans lab for right facial nerve tumor
  with nerve graft 3-23-06
   CSF leak revision surgery 4-07-06
   left mid fossa 4-17-08
   near deaf on left before surgery
   with hearing much improved .
    Univ of Iowa for all care

bridgie

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 12:52:55 pm »
It would be nice if I'd been supported when I was so sick w/complications. Pretty hard to advocate for yourself in the middle of the situation. I am sorry others are suffering here w/complications and are having difficulty getting help. But for a long time I've felt really alone in this, like I did not have a voice. Becoming deaf on the one side hasn't helped not to mention that basically what I've been dealing with on an emotionaly level has been features of post traumatic stress disorder.  On top of that you get family and friends that think you are just acting up, attention seeking or a hypochondriac. A bone infection of your cranium and epidural abscess is not visible. A not so unusual complication of chronic diabetis is osteomyeliits (bone infection) of the foot. These type of infections are a nightmare to treat and often the foot is amputated. Well, they can't cut off your head! I had to fight this as hard as any cancer person fighting a cancerous tumor and malignancy! It took umpteen 400 mile  trips back and forth to my doctors. It was as though I lead a double life and my situation to my local so-called supports was too out there for them to grasp and deal with. And just like people whom are clueless regarding persons struggling w/cancer and tend to say dumb things, welll...I could likely do a whole stand up comic routine regarding all the dumb things I've been told by a number of surprising resources that should have known better! So, yes this should be a call to arms. A discussion at the symposium os overdue!

Omaschwannoma

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 06:17:02 am »
Hi Bridgie,

Sounds like you've had or are still having? your share!--very sorry to hear this.   :(

The "invisible" disability is a tough one for many, and you do feel alone in dealing with it.  I beleive Phyl recommended a book once upon a time about the invisible disability, try a "search" for it. 

In the mean time, I think posting under a "new topic" about those funny comments would be in order as one could go to it for a good laugh! 
1/05 Retrosigmoid 1.5cm AN left ear, SSD
2/08 Labyrinthectomy left ear 
Dr. Patrick Antonelli Shands at University of Florida, Gainesville, FL
12/09 diagnosis of semicircular canal dehiscence right ear

ppearl214

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Re: How supportive was your AN surgeon post surgery with headaches?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 07:43:31 am »
Karen,

My goodness, such a memory! :) Good for you!

Here is the info/thread regarding the book I noted:

http://anausa.org/forum/index.php?topic=6421.msg65226#msg65226

"Living Well with a Hidden Disability:  Transcending Doubt and Shame and Reclaiming your Life" by Stacy Taylor, M.S.W., L.C.S.W with Robert Epstein, PhD. 

Hoping it helps!
Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"