ANA Book Club?

[Kaybo]

I could be way off here, but I think of their culture as one that doesn't value women nor the relationships with them.  I think that he kept visiting her -off in the woods by himself - because he could be more himself with her than he could as the big businessman with his other kids.  Because of all the time spent with JUST her, I think that he really had more of a soft spot for her - he didn't enforce it when the "wives" insisted on her marriage, but I don't think he wanted that for her.  OK, that brings up another point - I thought that his wives had a LOT more power over him than I thought that the women over there had...any thoughts?

I agree with Jan (as usual) that I am just glad I live in the US, especially having 3 girlies!!   

K

[JulieE]

Jalil's letter made me tear up because it reminded me of my own fathers passing: too many things remained unspoken.  Not so much by him (although he was a man of few words: Have you ever heard the joke about the Norwegian who loved his wife so much he almost told her!?) but by me (not that absolution was mine to give), as I have come to acknowledge all the good and not just harbor bad feelings about some perceived failure.  Given circumstances/upbringing - we're all just doing the best we can.  Steve had it with the words torn & status, and Jalil made a choice which he died regretting.  Miriam held the grudge that prevented them both from being freed, but ultimately Laila got to forgive him.  She also got the reward, not only conciously, but monitarily.  Which is just as well 'cause Rasheed would have spent it badly!
Jules

[JulieE]

Kay - It was 3 against 1!  Poor guy!  Actually that is a stereotype I am uncomfortable with: Women as catty and conniving;  the opposite is demur and victimized.  Kate's post about the interview with Mr. Hosseini is telling:

despite vast cultural differences, they identify with Mariam and Laila and their dreams and ordinary hopes

. The men that were likeable in the story did not want either extreme for the women in their lives.  Everyone is happy in the middle...extremity being the enemy.
Actually, I have a friend who, on a particularily exhausting day of being a wife, admitted she would like a "wife" too!
Jules

[sgerrard]

I did think that there was much about Mariam and Laila that anyone could relate to, whether man or woman. Their "dreams and ordinary hopes" are fundamentally the same ones shared by people every where - a chance at a normal decent life, with some companionship and something to live for.

Steve

[cindyj]

...was internetless yesterday...ugh, how did we used to get along without it?

I did think that there was much about Mariam and Laila that anyone could relate to, whether man or woman. Their "dreams and ordinary hopes" are fundamentally the same ones shared by people every where - a chance at a normal decent life, with some companionship and something to live for.

Steve

I agree with you Steve and that's what I meant in my earlier post, I just didn't manage to say it as well as you...(Just figured out how ya'll have been doing the quote thing!)

I think the book points out how vulnerable all people really are to the winds of change - one moment those women (and men also) led fairly similar lives to our own and the next they did not.  History has shown us time and time again that there is no guarantee of a status quo in life.  We must not take our freedoms for granted.  Does that make sense?  Steve, can you put it better for me, please?

Besides all this deep stuff, I just thought the book was great.  Did someone say he has another one coming out soon? 

Cindy

[Debbi]

It occurs to me that many Afghan men are also victims of their cultural doctrines.  When you look at Jalil - he obviously held deep affection, if not love, for Mariam, but when the "chips were down" he bowed to cultural expectations and married her off even though it probaby broke his heart.  He was, in my opinion, one of the most tragic figures in the book. 

On the other hand, Mariam turned out to be such a heroine in my mind.  She survived a hellish marriage and then found enough love in her heart for Laila and her child.  In the end, although she died tragically, she died having loved well and truly and having been loved. 

Debbi

[Kate B]

On the other hand, Mariam turned out to be such a heroine in my mind.  She survived a hellish marriage and then found enough love in her heart for Laila and her child.  In the end, although she died tragically, she died having loved well and truly and having been loved. 

Agreed....As I stop and think about it, Mariam spent much of her life being loved(often by people who didn't know how to express it properly)...her mother (who I think was the most tragic character in this book and was so fearful of losing Mariam), Jalil, Laila and her daughter, Aziza. It was almost as if Aziza gave Mariam the purpose she needed. Interestingly, Laila was also surrounded by those who loved her almost seamlessly except for the years when shunned by Rasheed and prior to the friendship established with Mariam.  The message: friendship, love and being surrounded by those who care keeps those in the bleakest of situations able to survive.  It is the human connection that is the common thread throughout all cultures. Oftentimes we look for the "differences" when in reality at the core is really a lot of "samenesses".

Kate

[beancounter]

Steve I chortled at your description of that "special" segment of the closing ceremonies.  It was especially meaningful to see David Beckham enter waving as though he was on a float in Christmas parade.  I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking it a bit bizarre, and I'm still trying to figure out the two guys dancing mid-air who appeared to be dredged in flour.

[sgerrard]

Beancounter! Once a month or so, rain or shine, you show up with another cheerful message. Nice to hear from you again, how is your wrist? Any closer to getting finished with that? Hope your doing okay, at least.

Steve

[Soundy]

The book was good and an eye opener... for me it brought up some strong feelings of a way of life
in parts of the south that goes on in a similar way , but to a lesser degree ...

I have tried to think of an opening question for discussion but letting personal experiences and observations
get in the way... so will wait for someone to toss out one first

quoting myself and borrowing from Kate's post too

I hope that readers respond to the emotions of this story, that despite vast cultural differences, they identify
with Mariam and Laila and their dreams and ordinary hopes and day-to-day struggle to survive.


In my earlier post I said I didn't want to toss out a question because the book up too many strong feelings...
my dad told me at the age of 8 that he had not wanted me and my sister we just happened before he got
his sons ... the only son of an only son of an only son he had it drummed into him that he had to have sons
to carry on the bloodline and name... girls were an inconveniance...

I married at 16 to get away from a home where my mom was cowed down and my dad was king and my
brothers who were at the time 13 , 11 and 9 were princes... out of the frying pan into the fire ...

first year was OK... then came first son ... ex was thrilled ...he had told me that a girl child would not be
tolerated ... abuse started when son was maybe 9 month old... food was not just right... even if there were
5 pair of pants in the closet and one on his rear end and one in the hamper he wanted the one pair that had
not been washed...

I began to wear long sleeve shirts year round to hide bruises and never wore shorts if anyone was around... he
was careful with bruise placement ...I said I was afraid of skin cancer and was protecting my arms from the sun
when asked about my woredrobe... the shirts were my burqua...I stayed home with myself and children as
they came along having little contact with other people for many years... went to the minister who married us and
he told me that I had married for better or worse and had to find what in me made my husband have to
hurt me ... then the man told my husband I had complained about him and his abuse double ... it was his right and
duty given by God to rule over his house which included training his wife... when the boys got into school things
were a bit better... he was scared that someone would see something or the boys would say something ...

I finally went to the police and then DHS when things hit a biling point and was told that he had to hurt one of
the boys bad enough to cause alarm that they could not help me if it was just me he hurt... but they could have a talk
with him as a courtesy to me ... a WTF moment... I told them forget it ... he was verbally abusive to the boys but
that was not enough and them talking to him would have cause me more trouble... so I lived with it...

I lived like this for 17 years ... a bit before I finally left I stopped wearing long sleeves... I told him hit me all he liked ...
the world would see cause I would not cover up... and when it wormed up I wore shorts and tank tops... not short
shorts and no string strapped tanks ... I was covered enough for public ... and when I gained enough confidence I left...

through all this I had tried to get him to go to counseling and he said he had no problem ... this was life like it or
lump it ... so I lumped it ... my youngest son then 15 told me it was about time ...

I am now stronger than I ever was ... my new husband is almost too considerate of me and my feelings... he is who
my sons now all grown go to for advice or to help work on a car and other guy stuff...

I see this type of behavior going on to this day... and unless you are caught in it you can't understand how hard it is to
get out ... I was conditioned from age 8 on to believe that I was a second class citizen as a female , with the
obligation to serve the men in my life on a near slave like basis and that that was just the way things were... and local
law enforcement rarely steps in until someone is in the hospital or it spills over into the public eye... there is a good old boy
attitude in my area that stinks... those I went to for help shot me down and I just gave up for a while and survived
the best I could and protect my sons and try to keep them from becoming their dad

my dad remarried when my mom finally escaped him... his wife was a stronger female and didn't let him bully her
her daughter the way he did us ... he raise my step sister from age three on (she is now 27) as a person... he tried
to apologize for his ways and I took the apology but I am not sure I embraced it ... found out last week a chest cold
he has not been able to swing is lung cancer and he has been given 3-6 month ... one lung is 85% invaded and
the most they say they can do is keep him comfortable...

I am sad about his illness but sadder that a whole life passed by without him knowing me... the child he rejected
who in many way is the most like him... I look like him , we both do wood work , we read similar books and listen to
the same music ... I like myself and the things I do ... but wonder if I picked up woodworking when I got to the point
I could afford the tools just because he wouldn't let me touch his as a child and adolescence even though my brothers
could ... not a one of them has the least bit of interest in it now ... he is nicer to my two daughters than he was to
me and I am glad and I have no intention of them knowing about the other Papa ... but will make sure they know
they are people first and girls next and no one has the right to deny them rights based on what is between
their legs

dang ... I better stop... and may never read another book again ... told y'all it stirred up too much ... I think it
is time to go to my corner ...

all this said , I did enjoy the book

[Kate B]

Soundy your story shows the person of strength and character you are. It is like the author wrote this story for you just that the setting was a culture on the other side of the world. I can see why it dredged up so much emotion.    Despite your upbringing, look at the amazing person you've become and the caring man you found You broke the cycle (especiallly for your sons) by finding a way out of a traumatic marriage despite an equally difficult childhood. Wow...you are amazing.  I hope you had at least one trustworthy girlfriend or another family member during those 17 years to confide your fears, feelings and best hopes.

Kindest regards,
Kate

[yardtick]

Wow Soundy,

Its astounding that in this day and age and in North America females are still considered 2nd class citizens.  I applaud your candor and thank you for sharing the events that have occurred in your life.  As Kate said "you are amazing!"  I admire your strength. 

Anne Marie

[JulieE]

Soundy,  Don't shrink away to a corner now - you have just gotten this confidence!  Reading fictional books are mostly supposed to transport you away, not bring you closer to home.  I am sorry that this one did, and I hope you go through these emotions and stick it out.  The timing might be in a grand plan to help you with your father...
Anyway, it also highlights Kate's observation

Oftentimes we look for the "differences" when in reality at the core is really a lot of "samenesses".

She was refering to their "hopes and dreams", but as Anne Marie pointed out, the sameness could be in the attitudes toward women everywhere.  Luckily, most people are basically good, and with awareness I think the occurance is rarer (although it is sad that there is a spike in economic downturns) - I know that is of little consilation to those suffering domestic violence in their homes.  I also think Law Enforcement has had a change in attitude toward this topic as of late (barring a bad egg or two which sullies all their names, and the pockets of - hmm I can't come up with the word for localized stupidity) and I think they are working hard at educating the public about/and reducing domestic violence.   
I am glad you have moved on to a healthier relationship, which it's clear you did not take lightly trying for couseling,etc. first.  In the end we are responsible for forming future generations of men.  Debbie's point

men are also victims of their cultural doctrines

is true and I don't think it applies only to Afganistan.  You have done your children and their future spouses a favor.
Best, and KEEP Reading!
Jules

[Soundy]

Kate...unfortunately my families attitude was you made your bed , lay in it ...and hid most of what
was going on for years from friends... now I look back and am amazed that I am basically in one piece

Julie... I could no more quit reading than I could quit breathing... it was one thing I had as an escape from
what was going on...I could get lost in books ... I traded in Suns at teacher work room this morning for
Tailspin and a couple not on the list

I like that term localized stupidity... I have dubbed it the good old boys club... we had at one time several
officers who would go give warnings to men accused of abuse and go home to beat their wives... they are
gone and things are improving ... one who was a Tennessee State Trooper shot his wife maybe 15 years
ago... he had been reported scolded and wrists slapped... she is now in a wheel chair for life and he did 3 years
for armed assult... but still there is a feeling by many around here that men are #1 and not enough is done
til things get to a point it could not be hidden...

Yardstick ... I used to not be as candid about it and hid it ... then woke up and said I did nothing to
hide from... talking about it brings up emotions I wish were not there but they are a big part of what
has made me me ...a stronger person ...

I knew early on that Mariam would not survive...gut feeling ... and part of me didn't
want to continue on because if I didn't read it then she could still be alive and trying to find a way out ...a way to
remain living with and for those she loved...

[sgerrard]

Soundy,

I can certainly see why you the book might hit too close to home for you. You are now our modern day Mariam, heroically overcoming a bad situation and finding something better. I am struck by the similarity of your current relation to your father and Jahil in the story - the same tragic poignancy as his time draws nearer, as Debbi pointed out.

Cindy, I think you said it perfectly well, we can't take things for granted. I also agree that the book is a joy to read - the writing is truly excellent. I am going out on a limb and forecasting that Hosseini will be getting a Pulitzer prize soon.

I enjoyed reading the interview at the link Kate posted. I don't know if a third book is in the works yet, but I'm sure there will be one. It is already "anticipated" by me.

A note on the side: I read in the paper today of a US air strike in Herat, Afghanistan - 90 civilians killed, 60 of them children. The saga continues...

And one of my favorite sentences in the book, when Laila is sitting in the little hut picturing Mariam as a little girl, and seeing in the girl the woman she will become: "A woman who will be like a rock in a riverbed, enduring without complaint, her grace not sullied but shaped by the turbulence that washes over her."

Steve